Whether we like it or not

[Phil Carter]

Hello curious,

The Bowes-Lyon sisters is a classic example of what limit people in high places will go to to cover up, use disinformation and lie to protect a "scandal".. The shame of 5 women. all in the same wider family, of the same generation, all being mentally ill to varying degrees, and the fact that two of them were shuffled away from society, and one being declared dead by their own family, (because that is what Debrett's said remember).. "If the family told us she was dead, we had no reason to doubt it" tells me an awful lot.
That happened 50 odd years ago, and was discovered in the 80's to be a lie.
Go back a generation, and young Prince John was kept hidden away, because of his epilepsy. It is only recently that we have been told more of his life story.
You are correct. The shame of a person being in any way abnormal, connected to Royalty, and them being hidden away and their existance covered up IS appalling. And THOSE cases WERE NOT cases of National Security. Makes you think doesn't it.
Cover-ups happen. All the time.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael,

Thanks for your response.

There are circumstances involving the police actions around the murders themselves which leave an awful lot to be desired, as you know. For example the Dorset Street debacle, there are those who now believe that it is significantly different...before, during and after.

best wishes

Phil

[curious]

Hello Curious,

No, neither can I.

There have been more red herrings laid in this case than any Agatha Christie story. How things "known" have been planted into the public thought over 122 years, let fester, grown, develop, take off on a life of their own. The whole case is riddled with them. 200 different named supposed suspects, countless books, films, plays, supposed "evidence" suddenly turns up, (MJK3 photo amongst others).. and rolls on and on and on...it is all like a silly game to some.

All because Anderson played HIS game. Spymaster extraordinaire.

best wishes

Phil

I googled the Bowles-Lyon sisters and was intrigued and appalled.

Plus, we can never be sure that Prince Albert Victor really died of pneumonia. If he had been becoming a "problem" he might simply have been put away.

Very interesting glimpse into the royals.

curious

[The Good Michael]

The link to Fenianism I am talking about is Anderson using the murders to do his Anti-Fenian operation in the area with brought-in policemen from an known Anti-Fenian background, amongst other things.

But this would be no revelation, Phil. A spymaster who was trying to root out all sources of insurrection and anarchy would use every resource at his disposal to do so. If you are suggesting he didn't care about the Whitechapel murders and instead used resources in a different direction, I think that is possible. But there is no cover-up for the murders and no scapegoating of Jews in this theorizing. In fact, it would have little or nothing to do with the murders. Unless... you are looking at the tip of the iceberg and attempting to play it coy at first.

Cheers,

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Harry,

Thank you for your reply.

You have interpreted my words well, but the reference to Fenian violence is incorrect. The link to Fenianism I am talking about is Anderson using the murders to do his Anti-Fenian operation in the area with brought-in policemen from an known Anti-Fenian background, amongst other things. The type of violence used by Fenians has nothing to do with my point, as I haven't said that the murderer WAS a Fenian.

best wishes

Phil

[harry]

I do not think I have misunderstood the main point of this thread,which appears to me to be a possible link connecting the Ripper killings and the Fenians.Phill I believe, does not feel enough research has been devoted to finding such a link,therefor it should not,in his opinion, be discarded.
That is not to say that those who believe there is no link have cast it aside without thought.From what I read, the first objection to political involvement (and it would be political if the fenians were involved)is the manner of violence involved,and the choice of victim.This is a link in the chain of involvement that would have to be explained on it's own,and in my opinion,as good a place to start any research.Would the Fenians have employed that type of violence?

[Phil Carter]

I see no point in things continuing to be kept secret.
curious

Hello Curious,

No, neither can I.

There have been more red herrings laid in this case than any Agatha Christie story. How things "known" have been planted into the public thought over 122 years, let fester, grown, develop, take off on a life of their own. The whole case is riddled with them. 200 different named supposed suspects, countless books, films, plays, supposed "evidence" suddenly turns up, (MJK3 photo amongst others).. and rolls on and on and on...it is all like a silly game to some.

All because Anderson played HIS game. Spymaster extraordinaire.

best wishes

Phil

[curious]

This is such a litigious society (at least in America), is it possible descendants could/would sue for damages?

or would it just be a scandal? which, at this point in time, a scandal would not really affect much since everyone is dead and can not be embarrassed.

I see no point in things continuing to be kept secret.

I can see how two cases, overlapping in such a small area, could possibly tangle.

I can also see that files belonging to the secret arm/employees of the investigation being kept secret -- to no advantage perhaps, but out of "tradition."

To me, that seems a reasonable explanation for the spotiness of the information that is publically available.

Does it to anyone else?

curious

[Phil Carter]

Hello Curious,

To answer your question.. in that same posting I wrote..

THEN IT WOULD HAVE TO BE KEPT QUIET...because..

If THAT were the case, Robert Anderson, Henry Matthews, Charles Warren, Prime Minister Salisbury and many others could be deemed to be complicit in some serious acts of crime.....
....and if THAT was the case...well, I leave you to ponder the implications AT THE TIME of this getting out.

There are living relatives today, of those victims, traced by fine, diligent researchers.
Perhaps THEY, the family, would have some serious questions to ask, would they not?
If it were me, I would accept the "work" they did, but I would certainly ask questions as to WHY the whole thing was covered up in the first place.

In much the same way, I imagine, that the relatives of David Kelly today are asking much the same question of THIS apparent cover up..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-post-mortem-kept-secret-70-years-doctors-accuse-Lord-Hutton-concealing-vital-information.html

So those of you who do not believe in smokescreens. I urge you to think again. This isn't a "one off"... the "Bowes -Lyon sisters" is a classic example. Raul Wallenberg is another. There are many.
Because in some circles, at various times over the years, SADLY, it happens.

Those are facts.

best wishes

Phil

[curious]

Please address this point:

Hi, Phil,
From your Point No. 3:
"It is totally naive to believe that any name in those files would have any damaging effect on todays relatives, 4 or 5 generations down the line... UNLESS...
the VICTIMS themselves were part of or used in undercover operations.


How would anything change if the VICTIMS themselves were part of or were used in undercover operations?

Would you please explore this further?

Thanks,

curious

[tnb]

Background is indeed the key word. I am glad to hear you state once and for all Phil that you are not suggesting some grand conspiracy. It would undermine some excellent research and very interesting questions to have any suggestion of doing so. Hopefully this thread can progress from here.

Just a thought - and please no-one take this TOO seriously - but how dramatic (politically, I mean) do we think an investigation would have to be to be worth holding back evidence around a number of brutal murders (and I say 'a number' very carefully, as in 'a number anywhere between one and five, or even more')? To put it more simply, if Anderson et al had evidence that could have led them to the WM, or at least MJK's killer, but revealing it in court would have revealed other, more nefarious, activities, do we think they may have decided to save their own skins?

It certainly would have made those 'in the know' very jumpy when they realised how the publicity around the murders (which they hardly could have foreseen) was not going away. Perhaps jumpy enough to lock the unpalatable truths up in a special branch file....?

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

So that there (hopefully) won't be any more misunderstandings on this thread, and to answer a lot of those misunderstandings...

From post Nr. 3

1.

Anderson's heavy involvement with the anti-Fenian cause, the bringing in of policemen aquainted with the anti-Fenian cause, both locally and from as far away as Dublin, from various departments and of various rank, specifically for use in the JTR case, the seemingly great amount of Irish connectionsboth within the police force and the victims lives and aquaintances and families themselves....

and further

There is no doubt in my mind at this present moment in time, that the manoveuring into Whitechapel of a considerable police force, around the International Working Mans Club, which did not just consist of the Jewish man and woman, but anarchists and troublemakers from different clans and groups and nationalities, is a central point that has something to do with these killings. To imagine that two different immensely important police operations are happening quite separate from each other, within such a small area, is, in my honest opinion, naive.

From post No.8

2.

....a file in the SD/CID files entitled "The Whitechapel murders" INDICATES, because of WHERE it is, that there exists something relating to national threat suspicions.
Files in the CID are there because of exactly that. And the Fenians WERE regarded as a National threat.

From post Nr.9

3.

If the Whitechapel Murderers have their OWN file amongst the SD Files, that can ONLY mean that something within them was considered a national threat. Otherwise they would NOT be in there at all. It is highly unlkely that any of the named suspects were considered a threat to the Monarchy and the Crown.
So something MUST, by sheer definition, be connected to something undercover. Those files are kept in perpituity. There is NO good reason why they should STILL be kept secret, for if the "threat" from 1888 is STILL a possibility, then it must have been much much worse than we can imagine.

Alternatively, the answer given to the files being kept under lock and key are the names in the files and the effect on those people's families then and now.
I'm sorry, but it is totally naive to believe that any name in those files would have any damaging effect on todays relatives, 4 or 5 generations down the line... UNLESS...
the VICTIMS themselves were part of or used in undercover operations.

From post Nr 13.

4.

Those who are interested in Fleming, and Hutchinson, I also applaud. There are avenues we need to look down. Thoroughly. Other avenues also INCLUDE a Fenian link. It includes the CID. It includes DISINFORMATION and it includes the simple fact that TWO major operations happening at the same time in the same tiny area, involving an influx of SPECIALIST policemen... which MUST, in my logical, rational mind, have some connection with each other.

From post No.

5.

The authorities thought something very dangerous was happening in Whitechapel. Robert Anderson was at the centre of the policing of all of this. He was indeed the spymaster. And that CANNOT be emphasised enough either.

From post No.21

I myself, am of the opinion that many of the missing papers from the original files that went missing from an early point after the murders, may well be in there, because of the connection to the CID and the work they were doing. Also, any connections to anarchy, radicals and Fenianism, possibly a file on Tumblety should he have been suspected of any Fenian connection.

From post No. 23

6.

And the same goes for Anderson, who said as much when he mentioned his immortal line "...the traditions of his old department..."
I interpret that as "..I could tell more, but CID stuff is traditionally kept quiet".

I don't use, nor like the word conspiracy. I prefer to call this a smokescreen.
With Robert Anderson, spymaster, and CID head in charge of the Whitchapel murder case, it is not unreasonable to surmise that he used CID tactics during his time involved with the case. CID tactics are certainly on a need to know basis, and the fewer the better.

From Post No. 29

7.

Evening News 1st Oct 1920. The newspaper stated that he (Coroner Wynne Baxter) attributed these crimes to the Fenians. "Dr. Baxter advanced his theory to the Home Office, who told him he was not alone in his opinion."

This was repeated in Douglas Browne's book, The Rise of Scotland Yard. (1956)
"Sir Melville MacNaughten appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr.Balfour at the Irish Office."

From post No. 38 (DVV)

8.

Phil tries to understand why the police opinions are so....so....so.....
Without preconceived ideas.

From post No. 39

9.

Anderson's CID may well have used this series of murders, whilst it was all going on, to do his other business in the area. Anti-Fenianism.

From post No. 44

10.

With thanks to Tom Westcott, I quote him having written the following in the past....

I can guarantee there are many extant files under the names of various individuals that would contain notes and materials of much interest to us. The Tumblety file that's sure to exist in Special Branch, for instance.

and further

Now, IF that file on Tumblety exists, we already know he has Irish connections. Is it possible to connect Tumblety to Fenianism? Littlechild's comments ARE important. He was high up in the Secret Department. The same Secret Department that houses files on the Fenian problems from the time.

and further

It seems, for some reason, that Wynne Baxter's comment to the Home Office has been ignored or overlooked by researchers and historians since it was made known. As indeed has the Home Office reply, and Macnaghten's comment.
It has previously been suggested on these boards before that the Eddowes murder could be connected to her being one of Jenkinson's "girls", on the ground infiltrating Fenianism. I do not in any way say this is so.. but an intruiging thought. We know that women were used in undercover work.

and further

It is my belief the theories by these top policemen... Anderson, MacNaughten et al, about Druitt, Polish Jew, etc etc were red herrings... and those red herrings are STILL being believed, 122 years later. Confuse and counter confuse. It has certainly worked! All said without one iota of proof.

From Post No.46

11.

THE CID and SD were all over the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper case, with CID detectives working left right and centre on it.... WHERE WOULD THE SD DETECTIVES' REPORTS AND OBSERVATIONS BE? IN THE SD FILES PERCHANCE? SD SUSPECTS? Reports on them ? Including Tumblety by the way, as has been previously mentioned. BY OTHER researchers.

and further

FURTHERING THE CAUSE OF IRISH NATIONALISM AND BUTCHERING HARMLESS WOMEN IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!!

It is a about counter espionage, arranged by the spymaster Anderson, using the murders as a bckground for his Anti-Fenianism. Therefore the inbflux of the special police, therefore the amount of SD in the area, therefore it is about WHY Anderson did what he did.

I have NOT, and I will repeat this, I have NOT said that the murderer was a Fenian, nor part of a Fenian plot. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.
He could have been...he may not have been..but that ISNT THE POINT.

It was MACNAUGHTEN that suggested that, also WYNNE BAXTER suggested a Fenian connection to the murders.
I have only said these things need investigating thoroughly.

It is the actions of the POLICE I raise HUGE question marks over in all of this.
ANDERSON especially.

tnb, spyglass Thank you, you have understood.

Now hopefully with the above quotes from my own posts (except one, DVV), it should be perfectly clear that the BACKDROUND is the important thing in this thread, the police position, evidence and LINKS to Fenianism.

And that is NOT sensationalistic, accusational nor crazy. It shows a FEASBLE BACKGROUND LINK.

best wishes

Phil

[spyglass]

In Mike Warrens chapter "THE GREAT CONSPIRACY" in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF JACK THE RIPPER", he seems to point at possibly that MJK was a police imformer or more, especially when you take into consideration the vagueness surrounding her identity, her past, no family coming forward or traced after her death.
MJK remained a mystery during and after death, and remember that not everyone excepts all murders were done by the same hand. Very possibly MJK was completly seperate from the other victims. And there is also the argument that it was'nt MJK found murderded at Millers court.
Ofcourse there is no proof of any of this, its just another of many theorys, but isnt that what most of JTR is???

[tnb]

Many people will no doubt go 'no no no' when they read this and bang their heads repeatedly against their computer desk - but for reasons I am still looking into, and which are far too longwinded (and generally offtopic) to summarise here, I feel Sgt White is *potentially* key to this whole 'alternative' reading of the murders.

I feel it is too easy to simply dismiss the Stephen White 'sighting' (or at least the story of it) simply because there is no mention of it in the official files and because a couple of details (ie geographically) are off. Obviously that is not everyone's opinion, but this is not the place to discuss that. If that was the only mention of White then I might be more inclined to let it go, but he seems to pop up - seemingly under the radar -more than any other apparently minor officer, and at a number of extremely interesting points in the investigation. Alledgedly Mitre Square, Berner St...it is especially interesting given the backgrounds of the two 'detectives' who seem to have exerted a certain 'influence' on Packer changing his story. And who do we find taking those dubious statements? Sgt Stephen White.

Personally I feel White was more integral to the case than we realise, and potentially knew more than we will ever know. I feel it is precisely the differences in the official accounts of White's activities that may reveal the truth about his role. We have a sighting accredited to him but in a location that doesn't fit with the descriptions of the account - was this perhaps because to reveal the real location of the sighting would reveal the truth about certain surveillance activities (and targets?!). We have an apparently uniformed sergeant operating in plainclothes - as Tom asks, how do we know this was the only such occasion? And then of course we have a mysterious 'City PC' given credit for yet another (???) mysterious sighting...:-)

After all, we have a known 'spymaster' giving the orders in Whitechapel at the time, is it beyond the realms of possibility that he may have recognised the potential in a member of his team or two for a spot of subterfuge?

I have been one of the cynics/ devil's advocates on many of the recent Fenian threads; in part, I was always doing so as I believe a certain number of people need to do so to truly test out any theory, but equally it is only fair to say that I am beginning to come around to your way of thinking Phil. Keep up the good work both. By the way (Tom), this IWMEC police operation is new to me - it may just be me being a relative newcomer, but is there any contemporary info on this to bring me up to speed?

I must admit however that my main problem with the Fenian 'angle' is similar to that of many people on here - what exactly was their aim supposed to be?Would you perhaps like to enlighten us with an educated guess Phil? Even just a working supposition?

[doris]

I too fail to see how slaughtering whores would help seperatist micks achieve their goals.

doris