Whether we like it or not

[Natalie Severn]

There was no evidence of Fenians being involved or Anarchists.But clearly for some policemen who hadnt been on a beat ever,men like Macnaghten and Anderson are good examples of such,certain groups of people probably frightened them a bit,secretly.The Fenians probably frightened Macnaghten,with their bomb planting etc and so they became his particular bogey man.
For Anderson,it was the newly arrived immigrants from Eastern Europe with their differing languages and to his mind strange customs,that probably scared him ,so the poor Polish Jews of Whitechapel became for him a sort of scapegoat, who he could throw all his scared thoughts about aliens at.
Its sad really.
I must say men like Inspector Abberline seemed a lot more in touch with real people.You dont hear about Abberline having problems about the people who populated Whitechapel,unless they really were bombers or criminals.

[Marlowe]

Hi Phil,

Anderson, the spy, was in the best position to know if the Fenians were involved or not. Baxter's opinions are meaningless and not the least bit surprising. And they sure do not constitute evidence of any kind.

So, first you would have to prove a cover-up involving Anderson and then explain why the Fenians would commit such murders. Is this going to happen soon? Probably not.

Now, a Fenian who was a Druid, that might work :-) Tumblety was sort of a witch...

Marlowe

[Phil Carter]

Marlowe,

I do not HAVE to PROVE anything. Especially to the likes of you.
AS you are obviously such a genius (with comments like Druid, and witch.. it shows how brilliant, and serious you are), I suggest you go somewhere else and annoy others, which seems to be your bent...as your previous postings have done exactly the same against other people before me.

Phil

[Marlowe]

Bye Phil,

Oh and say hi to Perrymason...

[DVV]

Hi Phil,

Anderson, the spy, was in the best position to know if the Fenians were involved or not. Baxter's opinions are meaningless and not the least bit surprising. And they sure do not constitute evidence of any kind.

So, first you would have to prove a cover-up involving Anderson and then explain why the Fenians would commit such murders. Is this going to happen soon? Probably not.

Now, a Fenian who was a Druid, that might work :-) Tumblety was sort of a witch...

Marlowe

Hi Marlowe,

have you understood what is this thread about ?
No.

Take my advice and come back to post #3.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Bye Phil,

Oh and say hi to Perrymason...

Fare you well Marlowe.

And, oh, shut your tiny mouth.

Amitiés,
David

edit : whether you like it or not.

[harry]

Phil,
Someone,if not you,will have to provide some evidence of Fenian involvement,if your writings are to bear fruit.This is all Marlowe is insinuating,and I agree with him.While there can be no objection that violence was a part of the Fenian's commitment,I find it hard to understand how the Whitechapel murders could further it's aims.Still best of luck,though as I was once told,there is no such thing as luck,there is only good judgement and bad judgement.
Regards.

[DVV]

Hi Harry,

I often find myself in agreement with you, but not this time.
Phil tries to understand why the police opinions are so....so....so.....
Without preconceived ideas.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Hello Harry,

Thank you for your reply.
The POINT of this thread was, infact, made in post No.3. as DVV has pointed out. If that is read correctly, I clearly state that I don't care who finds the answer, or what the answer is..just that this particular line be given the same amount of research and fair room as all others.
The comments made by Wynne Baxter and MacNaughten, the involvement of Anderson with both his hats on at the same time, the location and political situation, the social conditions and the ambience of the people, the background of MANY of the policemen involved, and the obvious stalemate of the situation after 122 years having followed the same line, are all contributary factors to my posting, No.3.
We cannot, in my honest opinion, ignore these things.
Whether that leads to a revelation towards or against Fenian involvement, I feel that the subject needs to be seriously understood. It is the backdrop against which the murders were committed.

*edit*.. Anderson's CID may well have used this series of murders, whilst it was all going on, to do his other business in the area. Anti-Fenianism.

best wishes

Phil

[Marlowe]

Hey DVV, I think the last time we spoke was more than 8 months ago or so. I don't remember saying anything to you since then, am I correct? Still traumatized from the whoppings I gave you, I guess? Grow up you little worm. Just like perrymason you offer little and should be ignored. You're another freak who needs attention or you get angry. Now get lost. Or, say something intelligent if that's possible.

[DVV]

Does your mother know you use her computer at night ?

edit : I don't remember any dialogue with you, sorry!

[The Good Michael]

Over the last 4 months or so, there have been various threads both touching upon, and indeed pointing towards, the involvement of Fenians in the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper murders.

Phil,

There have been various threads, yes, but they are not necessarily useful ones, though I have no room to speak about usefulness. My point is that threads are often started for no more reason than whimsy. Why should they all be treated with the same amount of respect and validity as others? When the idea of streamers of flesh hanging about in the Kelly photo was presented, it was quickly and vehemently quashed. The same can be said for many others. Why should an Anderson and Fenian involvement be take seriously as there is no documentation or any sort of secondary evidence for such a thing. I am seriously asking why and in no way denigrating the idea.

Cheers,

Mike

[protohistorian]

amen...We are not racing, they are dead. What you can do, what you will do , what is to be? Lets see. Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your genuine meaning behind the question. And I will attempt to answer why this is more important than a thread about streams of flesh. (I happen to agree with you there by the way!)

With thanks to Tom Westcott, I quote him having written the following in the past....

I can guarantee there are many extant files under the names of various individuals that would contain notes and materials of much interest to us. The Tumblety file that's sure to exist in Special Branch, for instance.

Now, IF that file on Tumblety exists, we already know he has Irish connections. Is it possible to connect Tumblety to Fenianism? Littlechild's comments ARE important. He was high up in the Secret Department. The same Secret Department that houses files on the Fenian problems from the time.

There were senior men centrally involved in the investigations of the murders who suggested at various points in time that Jack the Ripper crimes were connected with Fenian activities and/or individuals.

It seems, for some reason, that Wynne Baxter's comment to the Home Office has been ignored or overlooked by researchers and historians since it was made known. As indeed has the Home Office reply, and Macnaghten's comment.
It has previously been suggested on these boards before that the Eddowes murder could be connected to her being one of Jenkinson's "girls", on the ground infiltrating Fenianism. I do not in any way say this is so.. but an intruiging thought. We know that women were used in undercover work.

Like Littlechild's comment on Tumblety to Sims, Wynne Baxter's comments on Fenianism to the Home Office ARE important. Douglas Browne's written comment about MacNaughten's view of a Fenian connection likewise.

The Parnell business that had been simmering under the political surface for a good while, was about to come to a head in 1889. Anderson had all sorts of things to answer with that, including the Le Caron situation. Remember, Anderson met Le Caron in Paris in 1888. The stopping of a man called Walsh, of the planned assasination of Balfour was the result in this meeting with Le Caron.
In his Secret Department capacity, it would be normal to present it so that nobody was meant to know why Anderson went abroad. The ill health thing could well have been a ruse. To confuse and counter confuse was a very normal thing for Anderson. His Secret Dept and their actions were all carried out very much on a need to know basis.

Was all this done to help to keep any further speculation at a minimum with the Parnell Commission on the horizon perhaps? Especially IF Wynne Baxter's observations were AMONGST the views that were being recieved at the Home Office. Henry Matthews would really have been worried if Wynne Baxter's comments had been made public at the time. Look at the reaction to the comment about American doctors looking to buy organs! What would the reaction of the masses have been had ANY comments about Fenianism and Jack the Ripper been printed by the newspapers for the masses to read?

It is my belief the theories by these top policemen... Anderson, MacNaughten et al, about Druitt, Polish Jew, etc etc were red herrings... and those red herrings are STILL being believed, 122 years later. Confuse and counter confuse. It has certainly worked! All said without one iota of proof.

Again I say. 122 years later. SD/CID files.. what's the big secret? THAT is where the documentation, by definition, must be Mike.

best wishes

Phil

[Sox]

Again I say. 122 years later. SD/CID files.. what's the big secret? THAT is where the documentation, by definition, must be Mike.

Hiya Phil, so you keep saying, but three pages later and you still have not come up with a reason as to why.

One hundred and twenty two years later, there is actually documentation to prove that what you are trying to say is quite wrong, the autopsy reports. With the benefit of those one hundred and twenty two years, & hindsight, we can say, with almost complete certainty, that those reports scream 'hello I am a sexual serial killer'.

Even Dr Bond, in 1888, knew this,even the police in 1888 knew this, and it is all there, in plain old English, for anyone to read. The evidence was there each time the killer struck, sexual serial murderer, refute that if you can. Please tell me why, butchering harmless common prostitutes would further the cause of Irish Nationalism, tell me exactly how this was ever going to win over the support of the world in general.

The Irish people never even condoned the bombing of mainland targets, where hundreds of innocent people were killed, let alone the slaughter of helpless women by a knife wielding maniac. If the Fenians had been behind the Whitechapel murders then the British Police would not have hidden the fact, they would have made certain that it was splashed across the front pages of every newspaper in the country.