Whether we like it or not

[Jeff Leahy]

All sounds like bubbling conspiracy theory to me. And I’ve never come across one that wasn’t a house of cards.

Not that the background colour isnt interesting.

But the simple answer is a lone serial killer.

Pirate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

Nope, not a conspiracy. I don't think MacNaughten would suggest a conspiracy.
Nor Wynne Baxter.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Limehouse,

Yes, It could well be that they were looking at Tumblety in that sense. The influx of American Fenians into London is well known. American doctors with Fenian links also.
Looking into Fenianism, and the machinations going on behind the scenes from Clan leaders, with the whipping up of sympathisers to raise money in the USA, one can see the gradual and ever deepening problem arising, politically, for the politicians and police in Britain.

This wasn't new. It had been going on for over thirty years. The plots to kill Balfour (there were several), and the deep awareness of Anderson's anti-Fenian activity, combined with the anti-Fenian police prescence in the area, the KNOWN use of women as anti-Fenian grasses in the area(Jenkinson introduced the idea) all contribute to a scenario which happened to be in and around Whitechapel at the time of the Jack the Ripper/Whitechapel murders.
It is not, therefore, in any way unreasonable to see that these two happenings were entwined. The mere introduction of specialist anti-Fenian policemen into the MURDER case, is a clear indication of this.

The background I wrote about earlier is of the highest importance. and it really cannot be over emphasised, this was NOT a story. It was real life terror. It caused real life fear. And the politicians exhumed real life panic because of the thought of anarchy, revolution and chaos.

The authorities thought something very dangerous was happening in Whitechapel. Robert Anderson was at the centre of the policing of all of this. He was indeed the spymaster. And that CANNOT be emphasised enough either. He had more fingers in more pies than most Jack the Ripper enthusuasts know about. And this was the man in charge of the CID. He disliked Commissioner Warren, and hindered Warren whenever he could. (In tandem with Matthews at the Home Office).

I have said for a long, long time, that there isnt any sense in these killings. Too many ends that don't match, let alone tie up. I have the distinct feeling that files that were purloined of information are important NOT because they reveal who JTR was, but because they actually cover the holes in the case.
And I believe those holes indicate a CID activity that emphasises even more the entwinment of the two cases.
Why else would the CID have a file on the Whitechapel murders? The mere prescence in the SD/CID files indicate one thing only. A threat to National Security. And the SD was set up for one reason only. Fenianism.

If Tumblety was suspected of Fenianism, there could well be papers on him in those files too. It would not surprise me in the least.

As I said. After 122 years....The SD/CID files...why the big secret?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Hunter,

Thank you for your reply.
The issue of the release of files is a thorny one over here. The trouble lies in the word Fenianism. However, it is my belief that the files should be released now on grounds of time, as witholding these files serve no real purpose.
The family feuds and vengeance arguement, recrimination etc, hold no water from 122 years ago. It si 4 or 5 generations ago.
However, I fear that the only way to get somewhere on this issue is to lobby for a change of attitude, as you suggest.

best wishes

Phil

[spyglass]

I am a bit behind on all this and a have a lot of catching up to do, but can someone answer the following for me please.
1. This so called file locked away in CID, how sure of its existence are we, I can only vaguely recall hearing about it from S. Evans I think some time ago.

2. Who at this time would be aloud to see it, the Queen...the Prime minister ??

3. If all this was true, is it likely that certain imformation at the crime scenes were withheld. I refere mainly to the room of MJK.

[Phil Carter]

Hello spyglass,

Welcome to the boards, a little late, but welcome none the less.
Thank you for your reply.

The existance of a file labled "The Whitechapel murders", within the SD/CID files, has been talked of for a long time. Nobody will confirm it's existance, because of the simple reason that if anybody has been privvy to that information for certain, questions will be asked on how such information was obtained by the individual. Therefore nobody will admit to having seen this supposed file, nor it's cover.
The contents of the file have, as far as I am aware, never been seen by any living author, researcher or historian.

Who would be allowed to see it is a political question first and foremost.
The Home Secretary, Prime Minister and Head of the CID would certainly be in consultation on any such decision. Whether it would mean involvement of the Crown, I do not know. Possibly, under certain circumstances.

What is within these files is a mystery itself. Much speculation has been bandied about on this very subject. I myself, am of the opinion that many of the missing papers from the original files that went missing from an early point after the murders, may well be in there, because of the connection to the CID and the work they were doing. Also, any connections to anarchy, radicals and Fenianism, possibly a file on Tumblety should he have been suspected of any Fenian connection.
The Irish connections with this case are numerous to say the least, so it is not unfeasable that those connections, including MJK and Miller's Court, are held within the SD/CID files.

One can only hope that THESE files have not been purloined, and they have actually been left in peace.

122 years on.. The SD/CID files... Why the big secret?

best wishes

Phil

[spyglass]

HI Phill.
Many thanks for that, I find this angle on the case very fasinating and intresting, I just find it a bit srange that apart from Mike Warren with his entry in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF JTR on this line, that no other leading Ripper historians and authors have made more of it, unless I have missed a book or two.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Spyglass,

Thank you for your reply.

A few people have been quick to shout the word "another conspiracy theory" at the Fenian connection, comparing it to the Royalty (Prince Albert Victor) theory and The Sickert theory etc etc.
I do not believe that Douglas Browne would have mentioned what he did unless he had access to papers we have not seen, as he indeed indicated in his book. As MacNaughten never mentioned Fenianism at the time, it becomes all the more likely that his little list was indeed a red herring. Anything to take the attention away from anything near the truth, or away from anything re CID work. And the same goes for Anderson, who said as much when he mentioned his immortal line "...the traditions of his old department..."
I interpret that as "..I could tell more, but CID stuff is traditionally kept quiet".

I don't use, not like the word conspiracy. I prefer to call this a smokescreen.
With Robert Anderson, spymaster, and CID head in charge of the Whitchapel murder case, it is not unreasonable to surmise that he used CID tactics during his time involved with the case. CID tactics are certainly on a need to know basis, and the fewer the better.


122 years on. The SD/CID files...What's the big secret?

best wishes

Phil

[spyglass]

PHill,
Once again thank you for your very intresting, imformative and well written input, you certainly have me hooked. Indeed "a very hot potato"

[Marlowe]

Hello, Phil

Ok, so the Fenians killed how many women, 1 ,2 3...14?

And the motive for killing them was what, exactly?

And I am expected to believe that British spies and the police were trying to divert attention away from the Irish "terrorist" killers, rather than use the murders to undermine the Republican Cause? Is that correct?

Gee, give the Brits a little credit -- the ones I dealt with had way more "intelligence" than that :-)

You're going to need something really good to overcome such weaknesses. But do you?

Marlowe

[Phil Carter]

Hello Marlowe,

Thank you for your reply.

If you had read what I have written you will notice that I have said that there is, imho a Fenian CONNECTION to these murders. I have NOT stated anything about how many women were "killed by the Fenians". I respectfully ask you to re read my previous post, including what was the opening posting that started this thread, that became posting No.3 because of last night's trouble with the "bump" on the entire site.

I have not mentioned your assumption of "terrorist killers" either. Neither have I mentioned anything connected to anyone trying to "undermine the Republican cause". This is your interpretation.

If you read what I have written, I have mentioned a lot of factual background material, which I believe should be carefully considered. I also said, IF you had read my posting, that I am in NO WAY asserting it IS the answer. I merely pointed out that it should be thoroughly investigated.

The old presumption, gone through a thousands times and back, that a lone mad killer based on the 3 or 4 MacNaughten/Anderson mentioned names, has worn thin. Every single attempt to say that such is the case, with whoever, has got us, to this moment in time, nowhere.

However there are people involved in Ripperology who are researching individuals that I do warmly applaud, as the individuals concerned, Hutchinson and Fleming, for example, are of interest. or SHOULD be of interest, to us all. And, as I wrote before, the same should be said of any Fenian connection. There are, infact, some doing exactly that.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

The SD/CID FIles

Hi Phil

Nice stuff you're writing here.

I believe that all secret information regarding murders related to the 'Irish Question' then and now is buried in the files forever, in perpetuity as they say, to avoid family vendettas. No poncey 100 year rule on this one.

Correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong on this.

Hello Stephen,

Thank you for your kind comments. Please excuse the late reply.

As far as I am aware, all the SD/CID Files are, indeed closed in perpetuity. That these files could cause a family vendetta, is to my mind, after 122 years, a non runner. 5 generations down the line, and with the official IRA now disbanded, I wonder indeed what negative effect the opening of these files would have. Perhaps the current Home Secretary could explain such a reason.

best wishes

Phil

[Marlowe]

Hi Phil,

In other words, you don't have any evidence to suggest that the Fenians, as an organization, had anything to do with the killing of any women.

That's all I was asking. Thank you.

Marlowe

[Phil Carter]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

I did not make this up. The comment is from the Evening News 1st Oct 1920. The newspaper stated that he (Coroner Wynne Baxter) attributed these crimes to the Fenians. "Dr. Baxter advanced his theory to the Home Office, who told him he was not alone in his opinion."

This was repeated in Douglas Browne's book, The Rise of Scotland Yard. (1956)
"Sir Melville MacNaughten appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr.Balfour at the Irish Office."

best wishes

Phil

[protohistorian]

I am a bit behind on all this and a have a lot of catching up to do, but can someone answer the following for me please.
1. This so called file locked away in CID, how sure of its existence are we, I can only vaguely recall hearing about it from S. Evans I think some time ago.

2. Who at this time would be aloud to see it, the Queen...the Prime minister ??

3. If all this was true, is it likely that certain imformation at the crime scenes were withheld. I refere mainly to the room of MJK.

We need to be very careful here. It is abundantly clear that contemporary investigators could not divorce the crimes we study from their culturally bound interpretations. As an example, the ripper was likely as Jew, socialist, or both. Fenian's, as a culturally bound bogeyman, are likely to be no more than a remnant of investigator bias. By all means investigate, but be wary. Dave