Warren's Toff-Theory

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi DVV and Corey,

White's 'suspect' seems to have been a pure fabrication made after White's death. I wouldn't read too much into it. Warren suspected a 'secret society' as a result of the Goulston Street graffiti and the two murders within an hour. He felt it was a sophisticated group of men looking to blame the Jews. This is particularly interesting since he was a freemason. Godfrey Lushington took exactly the opposite interpretation of the evidence, supposing that the two murders and the graffiti pointed to a 'boasting' Jew as the killer. All I can say is that if this is any indication of Warren's thought processes, it's a good thing that London didn't get all the government it was paying for.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

White's 'suspect' seems to have been a pure fabrication made after White's death.

That was my take...now I have my doubts...

I wouldn't read too much into it. Warren suspected a 'secret society' as a result of the Goulston Street graffiti and the two murders within an hour. He felt it was a sophisticated group of men looking to blame the Jews.

Problem is that Williamson, who apparently shared Warren's "optimism", explicitly said to the French journalist that they were after ONE murderer (I've not posted this article - only one sentence).

Godfrey Lushington took exactly the opposite interpretation of the evidence, supposing that the two murders and the graffiti pointed to a 'boasting' Jew as the killer.

GL would then the "author" of the marginalia ("It increases my belief that the murderer is a Jew" - or something like that). I have no doubt you have good reasons to think so, Tom. Could you tell us a bit more ? (I thought it was Matthews or Ruggles-Brise, from what I've read.)

Amitiés,
David

[Chris]

It would be interesting to know how many bishops and members of the House of Lords did live in Whitechapel. Not a large number, I suspect.

[DVV]

Hi Chris,

they were dossing in the Victoria Home, I presume.

Amitiés,
David

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

In 1888 the private residence of the Reverend Henry North Hall, Curate of St. Mary, Whitechapel, was in Bucks Row.

Would he count?

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

In 1888 the private residence of the Reverend Henry North Hall, Curate of St. Mary, Whitechapel, was in Bucks Row.

Would he count?

I think the anwer would have to be no, unless he was a bishop or a member of the House of Lords.

[corey123]

David,

Your welcome. It is really a fantastic report.

Yours truly

[Natalie Severn]

Hi all,

this extract from a French newspaper, "La Presse", 8 October 1888.
An interview with Warren - quite rare, and amazing, as you'll see...

"J'étais à peine entré dans son cabinet, une grande pièce très simple, possédant pour tout meuble trois fauteuils, une petite bibliothèque et une grande table de travail, que sir Charles Warren vint à moi, me donne un shake hand (poignée de main) comme savent en donner les Anglais et engage immédiatement la conversation sur le fait du jour.

- Voyons, monsieur, me dit-il, c'est moi qui le premier vais vous interroger. Pensez-vous que le meurtrier appartienne à une classe inférieure de la société ?

- D'après ce que j'ai lu dans les journaux anglais, je croirais volontiers que vous avez affaire à un meurtrier appartenant à la classe dirigeante, comme vous dites en Angleterre. Ne pensez-vous pas que j'ai raison ?

- Je suis absolument de votre avis ; et mes renseignements personnels me permettent presque de l'affirmer. Voyez-vous, ce quartier de Whitechapel n'est pas seulement habité par une population pauvre. Il y a de tous les mondes dans ce district. Il y a des mendiants, des évêques, des nobles, des membres de la Chambre des Communes et même de la Chambre des Lords.

Ici, sir Charles Warren s'arrête et reprend en riant : "ça pourrait être un évêque...ou un Premier ministre. En réalité, j'ai des raisons de croire que ce doit être quelqu'un qui a appartenu à une excellente famille et qui est aujourd'hui un déclassé."

- Vous avez sans doute, à l'heure actuelle, de sérieux indices, et nous sommes peut-être à la veille d'une arrestation. Et cette arrestation amènera, peut-être, un gros scandale ?...

Sir Charles Warren : "Peut-être...nous sommes actuellement sur plusieurs pistes et je crois que le public pourra bientôt être satisfait de sa curiosité."

Amitiés all,
David

Many thanks for this David and to Chris Scott for his translation.I was translating this myself at 8 last night when we lost the Broadband link due to a fault at the exchange.
I dont wish to nit pick over words and their meaning but my own translation differed slightly on two points which could be of significance and was as follows:

11th line down-
" Absolutely and my PERSONAL ENQUIRIES almost allow me to confirm it ...


then line 17 down-

beginning halfway

"........in reality I have reason to believe it may be someone belonging to a very good class of family but who himself has left that class behind him"

an "outcast" is a "pariah" of sorts and he isnt really saying that in my opinion.

Only my interpretation but the "personal enquiries" bit may also be a little stronger in meaning than "private information".

Best

Norma

[Chris Scott]

Hi Norma
I hope all is well:-)
On the "déclassé" interpretation, the Larousse gives this as its opinion on its meaning as a noun:
" déclassé, déclassée[deklase]
nom masculin, nom féminin
c'est un déclassé he has lost his social status ou come down in the world"
The reason I used the word outcast was to try to convey that this was something that had happened TO him rather than a decision on his own part. I think the Larousse also implies this. Personally I think that to say he had left his class behind him implies it was a decision on his part, not a punitive effect on him of the actions or opinions of others.

I know these semantic quiblles can go on for ever and it ends up with no resolution but I just wanted to let you know how I came to that particular choice of word.
Your point about the difference of emphasis between information and inquiries is, I think, entirely valid.

Give me a bell and let's have a natter - it's been ages and i don't have your number!!
All the best
Chris

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou Chris.Yes,then that is clearly a perfectly understandable selection of word and probably preferable in this instance!
Regarding a chat----will do!
Cheers Chris,
Norma

[DVV]

Hi Norma and Chris,

just a quick word re semantics...
Chris' translation of "renseignements personels" ("Private information") is indeed absolutely correct.
That's exactly how I would translate "private information" in the Macnaghten memo.

Heureux de voir autant de francophones sur le forum...

Amitiés,
David

[ChrisGeorge]

It would be interesting to know how many bishops and members of the House of Lords did live in Whitechapel. Not a large number, I suspect.

I agree that was an odd statement to make. Maybe these days now that Spitalfields and other parts of the East End have become gentrified but not, I would suspect, back then.

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

GL would then the "author" of the marginalia ("It increases my belief that the murderer is a Jew" - or something like that). I have no doubt you have good reasons to think so, Tom. Could you tell us a bit more ? (I thought it was Matthews or Ruggles-Brise, from what I've read.)

I'm not sure who authored that line in the Swanson report, but I was referring to memos shot back and forth around Oct. 12th where Warren posits his 'secret society' theory as being the 'only viable' theory. Lushington, who must have been shocked by Warren's statement, replied in the manner I previously posted. You'll find these exchanges in 'Ultimate JTR'. I can't recall at the moment the name of the chapter, but it's the one regarding a man writing from France about a socialist in London he believed to be Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Fascinating account, David!

Many thanks for sharing.

I would have to echo Tom's sentiments, though, inasmuch as it offers an insight into Warren's rather outlandish ripper-related theorizing, if indeed the article is any strong indicator of same.

All the best,
Ben

[Dave James]

Likely Toff suspect

Hi all,
Fantastic find David.

Sounds like a likely lad for the 'distressed Toff' could be Roslyn D'Onston. After all he was living in the area at the time.

All the best
Dave