Anti-semite or not

[Mr Poster]

hi Pilgrim

What would amount to evidence ?

1. all the victims lying outside synagogues?

2. all the victims lying outside Jewish clubs?

3. perhaps a Jewish type cloth/garment/knife thrown at the scene?

4. a specific, attributable-to-Jack graffiti at a scene?

5. such graffiti at all the scenes?

6. and so on.

God bless jack...for a man who wanted to blame Jews, he certainly was very subtle. So subtle in fact he failed.

Without actually knowing who the murderer was, the immediate facts linked to the crime scene can only serve as mere indications.

True Pilgrim...true. of course perhaps you can explain then why these mere indications have transmogrified themsleves into:

All except the evidence you've ignored, Lars.

or perhaps you will just post a fairly cryptic picture and some complex quoting in nice colours and hope that will serve as a reasonable contribution and if not, pass as some kind of puzzle that if we do not get ......its because we are thick?

Why would a (hypothetically) anti-semitic murderer kill a Gentile woman in the possibly most anti-semitic street in the East End ?

No idea. Lucky for me I amnt touting the notion.

As to th erest of you rpost..................isnt it odd that given that th epolice apparently liked the idea of a Jewish killer....our man, who apparently was trying to finger the jews and for which fingering "evidence" apparently exists..................was doing nothing at all to help his plan.

Nothing. Not so much as a Yiddish fart to further his dastardly plan.

Bizarre isnt it? he must have been trying to blame Jews because Jews were being blamed even though we have no evidence he was trying to blame Jews..

Unbeleivable. Only round here could such tosh make its appearance.

Its like: he must have been local because he knew his way round and we know he knew his way round because he was local.

Escher logic. At first it seems to make sense....but closer inspection reveals it to be nothing but trickery.

Designed for amusement. But unfortunately some round here are convinced that stairs can be never ending and geese go from black to white.

+p

[cappuccina]

I don't think JtR was anti-Semetic, as I think...

...that he was a local Jewish man...

[Ben]

No evidence has been ignored. As the majority recognise, there is no evidence that our man had anything against Jews or was trying to finger Jews.

Really? According to who? A Norweigan chemist who posts aggressively all the time on internet bulletin boards. I'm sorry Lars, but while you may have an interest in the topic, nobody is ever going to look upon you as the final arbiter as to what consistitutes "evidence". Does it not trouble you a little that Scotland Yard apparently subscribed to the absolute reverse view? With Donald Swanson, who was in overall charge of the Whitechapel murder investigation, believing that the "evidence" pointed towards the killer implicating the Jews? Or Charles Warren, the police official at the very top of the hierarchical ladder, endorsing the same view? Same with Sir Henry Smith of the City Police etc?

Maybe it doesn't.

But then the fact that pretty much every expect under the sun, crime scene evidence, and established historical precedent pointed towards the likelihood of a local or locally-based offender didn't deter you from trying to claim they're all wrong either.

Disagree with them if you want, but it's a little cocky and undeservedly over-confident to start decrying "no evidence" when the comtemporary police clearly thought otherwise, especially if your sole intention behind debating here is an unsuccessful attempt to bring me down a peg or two. And as for my "deferall" to Sugden, what? Is he in your bad books now that you've find him supporting a view shared by contemporary police officials?

Here's what he said, for what it's worth:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

So once again, no, I am not suggesting for a moment that Jack the Ripper was Jewish; only that he took advantage of a convenient scapegoat on occasions wherever convenient, a view endorsed by the contemporary police and one of the most respected modern commentators.

1. all the victims lying outside synagogues?
2. all the victims lying outside Jewish clubs?
3. perhaps a Jewish type cloth/garment/knife thrown at the scene?
4. a specific, attributable-to-Jack graffiti at a scene?
5. such graffiti at all the scenes?
6. and so on.

This is a genius argument.

You're basically arguing that unless he implicated the Jews all the time, at every opportunity, in the most incredibly blatant and unsubtle manner imaginable, he wasn't implicating the Jews at all at any point. That's such a terrible argument, Lars. I think Caz had it spot on: "it has to be at least possible that Jack would have been happy to nudge the tiller in that direction if it occurred to him to do so and he had the means. There are many stages between pure accident and design by sledgehammer. And more than one commentator at the time actually saw the message coupled with the apron piece as a rather unsubtle exercise in shifting the blame back onto the Jews"

[Mr Poster]

Well now....it didnt take long for Bens true colours to surface did it?

Aggression, ranting, barely concealed psychosis....

Which is obviously the reason why, even though he admits there is no reason to think he was Jewish, arrives at the startling conclusion that, while he cannot show he was Jewish, can show that he was trying to utilise some ill-defined general attitude to Jews and used that in his murders.

Bizarre.

Now where is that Ignore button?

p

[Mr Poster]

Ooohhh............found it!

The "plink, plink......fizz" of a madman being consigned to Ignore heaven.

Wheeeewwww,,,,,,,,,,

p

[The Good Michael]

Two things that point to the murderer possibly being a Jew, rather than being an anti-Semite:

1. In, as already described, heavily Jewish populated areas, and with, according to Fishman, undoubtedly Jewish prostitutes in the East End, not one victim was Jewish. Not even non-canonicals.

2. Rather than being the work of someone trying to implicate Jews, the GSG quite simply is a message of warning against those who would blame the Jews for... whatever. If it was JTR's work, it's 50% likely it was either a Jew, or one trying to make it look like a Jew wrote it. In fact, 50% doesn't really work here as 50% of the population wasn't Jewish, but you get my meaning.

I don't see this as the work of an anti-Semite, or one wanting to shift the blame. If it were a blame shifter, why continue with Kelly without leaving some more blame clues? Oh, I forgot. Kelly is... different. Never mind.


Mike

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

In, as already described, heavily Jewish populated areas, and with, according to Fishman, undoubtedly Jewish prostitutes in the East End, not one victim was Jewish. Not even non-canonicals.

Interesting observation, but surely the idea that a Jewish prostitute-killer (i.e. a prostitute killer who happens to be Jewish) wouldn't kill Jewish prostitutes carries as much or as little weight as the the idea than Gentile prostitute-killer wouldn't kill Gentile prostitutes? Whoever the killer was, his actions clearly ran contrary to any faith he may have adhered to.

If it were a blame shifter, why continue with Kelly without leaving some more blame clues?

You can't get any less subtle than "Jewish" Mr. Astrakhan, Mike!

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Since the only possible clue to his being anti-semetic is one possible interpretation of the Goulston Street scribble....being that he felt that Jews were trying to remain blameless for something they were guilty of, I would have to side with Mr P, that there is no evidence at all to suggest the killer hated Jews,.. or was one.

A police officials opinion of a Jewish Eastern European being the culprit is likely the most prejudicial comment we have in these cases, as it clearly was based on an opinion that local Jews would cover for a killer solely because he was Jewish. Now thats anti-semetic.

My best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike,


Whoever the killer was, his actions clearly ran contrary to any faith he may have adhered to.

Unless it was about revenge for some unknown affront to him. A Victorian jihadist, though I don't want to go there.

You can't get any less subtle than "Jewish" Mr. Astrakhan, Mike!

Aha... so my ideas connect to Hutchinson. Interesting.... Feel free to snip that bit and insert it in one of your Mr. P. battles. I kind of like the thought of GSG and Astrakhan being connected.

Cheers,

Mike

[Monty]

The Police NEVER officially thought the murderer to be Jewish.

Shore is the only Police Official who stated in a report that the killer was Jewish. Seeing as he didnt cite his source nor are there any other reports supporting Shores view, one can only take this as his own personal opinion and not that of the Force as a whole.

Monty

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Now that I've been consigned, a raving madman, to "Ignore Heaven", I'm faced with the depressing prospect that those Mr. P battles are truly of yore. I hope not, but we'll see. If Hutchinson was the killer - naturally a big "if" given the passage of time elapsing since the murders - then yes, the Astrakhan description could be construed as a continuation of the Jew-deflecting antics enumerated by Sugden, in which case the GSG and Astrakhan would be connected.

Controversial stuff, eh Lars?

Let's lose the ignore lists and play a while...

[perrymason]

The Police NEVER officially thought the murderer to be Jewish.

Shore is the only Police Official who stated in a report that the killer was Jewish. Seeing as he didnt cite his source nor are there any other reports supporting Shores view, one can only take this as his own personal opinion and not that of the Force as a whole.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I think the key word there is "officially", because its quite clear from Anderson's later remarks that while during his stay in Switzerland, notes from investigators back home indicated they suspected a Polish Jew.

And he indicates that the Jewish witness taken to identify the suspect in detention, was disinclined to identify the suspect ONLY because he was also a Jew himself. It is said that Macnaughten, Anderson and Griffiths discussed the Polish Jew suspect Kosminski at Scotland Yard.

Its pretty clear they at least suspected a Jew to be behind these killings, although to base that on a Jews refusal to identify another Jew as a suspect, is pretty weak.

My best regards Monty

[Monty]

Michael,

There is a difference between suspect and convict and Kosminski was a suspect, one of many.

One of many lines perused no doubt. Including many races and religions.

Monty

[perrymason]

Michael,

There is a difference between suspect and convict and Kosminski was a suspect, one of many.

One of many lines perused no doubt. Including many races and religions.

Monty

Monty,

I believe you meant to say suspicion and conviction, but your point is taken. Yes, Portuguese Sailors, American Doctors, American Indians, East Indian Indians, Russian Doctors, British Lawyers, Irish rebels, Australian Immigrants, ..........I also have a mad German Doctor Id like added to the list, a man who reportedly had an exclusive "club", consisting mainly of London's socialites,they met in a basement of a hotel in the East End owned by one of the members, and the story has it that he was experimenting with his eternal life theory, one that required uteri as part of the process, and he reportedly killed a few of the members while attempting to implant an actual uterus into their abdomens. It is alleged their death certificates were faked, and later challenged by their families....one of which was the Carnarvons.

Now that takes care of German Doctors, perhaps we should also consider African tribesman?

My best regards Monty.

[Monty]

Hey Michael,

No, I meant suspect and convict.

Monty