Anti-semite or not

[The Rookie Detective]

Bump up for this ancient yet excellent thread


I think Ben had this spot on and I concur with his views on this.


RD

Hi Monty,

I now understand your position, thanks for expanding on your thoughts.

I mentioned that only in relation to the thread, as it is clear in the records, non-public ones at the time, that the Police, and not just one or two, felt the killer had been caught, and a Jewish witness refused to identify him because they shared a faith. I would never suggest that was some broadly accepted supposition throughout the force, or their official position on the matter, just that it is clear some involved felt the killer was Jewish....and I would think as a result, probably not anti-semetic.

I suppose that a Jewish Ripper would likely have come from the immigrant pool I mentioned, a more recently immigrated non-orthodox Jew. So its interesting that the message on the dado is in a street where recently immigrated Jews occasionally convened, and started Marches from there.

My best regards Monty.

[Monty]

Michael,

So basically, what you are stating is that its obvious the Police thought the murderer to be a Jew, a Polish Jew infact. Whereas, and you have mentioned this yourself, other nationalities and religions from all walks of life were questioned by them.

If the Police were so certain in the opinion then wouldnt they have targetted Polish Jews? The fact remians that though some Police Officials, and by no ways all, felt Jack was a Jew, there is no hard factual evidence supporting this theory. Nothing at all except mere suggestion and loose connection. Therefore the Official line was an honest and open minded approach. What you read is personal opinion, and this is not to be taken as evidence without good reason.

The context of the discussion is if the murderer was an anti semite or not. It isnt addressing the question of was the killer was a Jew?

As no one was convicted for the crime there is no convict. Therefore there is no way of knowing for certain the race and religion of the murderer. There is mere suspicion, which is another noun and is not fact..

...and finally, the simple fact is that there is more to think about than just the murders and killer. The impact on the community, a community which was mixed and volatile (if the Squibby affair is anything to go by), had to be dealt with also. It would seem Warren was considering such impacts.

Cheers
Monty

Hey Michael,

No, I meant suspect and convict.

Monty

Then you have me somewhat confused, "suspect" is applied to either a person or the notion that they should be "suspect-ed", ...Kosminski vs a Polish Jew in general, and convict is either a noun, a verb, or an adjective. A Convict, to convict, convicted felon.

I would think it is clear by notes and memos, many officials did feel it was likely a Polish Jew....or they suspected as much.

And in the context of the discussion, aren't we addressing whether officials recorded anywhere that they suspected a Jew was the killer, not that they didn't have enough evidence to convict any one Jew?

Im not saying they were showing any prejudice with those unofficial remarks, but I do suggest that to imply a Jew would not identify a mad killer if he was also Jewish, is. That speaks negatively to local Jewish respect for the law, the condoning of horrible actions, and implies that their hatred of the Police, for things like Bloody Sunday, or their shared faith with a killer would override their interest in having that killer brought to justice.

There had been a massive influx of Jewish people to the East End of London for decades, and some attitudes towards these "immigrants" were similar to the ones encountered by Irish immigrants as they landed in America. Meaning...the core of the prejudice was not based on their faith, but the fact that they immigrated to where they were, as a result, took some local resources from "natives", and became a big part of East Londons poverty problems.

I think in the case of the Whitechapel Murderer, the consensus was that no civilized person could have done these acts, and therefore the immigrants and the transients must have been the source.

My best regards Monty.

[Monty]

Hey Michael,

No, I meant suspect and convict.

Monty

Michael,

There is a difference between suspect and convict and Kosminski was a suspect, one of many.

One of many lines perused no doubt. Including many races and religions.

Monty

Monty,

I believe you meant to say suspicion and conviction, but your point is taken. Yes, Portuguese Sailors, American Doctors, American Indians, East Indian Indians, Russian Doctors, British Lawyers, Irish rebels, Australian Immigrants, ..........I also have a mad German Doctor Id like added to the list, a man who reportedly had an exclusive "club", consisting mainly of London's socialites,they met in a basement of a hotel in the East End owned by one of the members, and the story has it that he was experimenting with his eternal life theory, one that required uteri as part of the process, and he reportedly killed a few of the members while attempting to implant an actual uterus into their abdomens. It is alleged their death certificates were faked, and later challenged by their families....one of which was the Carnarvons.

Now that takes care of German Doctors, perhaps we should also consider African tribesman?

My best regards Monty.

[Monty]

Michael,

There is a difference between suspect and convict and Kosminski was a suspect, one of many.

One of many lines perused no doubt. Including many races and religions.

Monty

The Police NEVER officially thought the murderer to be Jewish.

Shore is the only Police Official who stated in a report that the killer was Jewish. Seeing as he didnt cite his source nor are there any other reports supporting Shores view, one can only take this as his own personal opinion and not that of the Force as a whole.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I think the key word there is "officially", because its quite clear from Anderson's later remarks that while during his stay in Switzerland, notes from investigators back home indicated they suspected a Polish Jew.

And he indicates that the Jewish witness taken to identify the suspect in detention, was disinclined to identify the suspect ONLY because he was also a Jew himself. It is said that Macnaughten, Anderson and Griffiths discussed the Polish Jew suspect Kosminski at Scotland Yard.

Its pretty clear they at least suspected a Jew to be behind these killings, although to base that on a Jews refusal to identify another Jew as a suspect, is pretty weak.

My best regards Monty

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Now that I've been consigned, a raving madman, to "Ignore Heaven", I'm faced with the depressing prospect that those Mr. P battles are truly of yore. I hope not, but we'll see. If Hutchinson was the killer - naturally a big "if" given the passage of time elapsing since the murders - then yes, the Astrakhan description could be construed as a continuation of the Jew-deflecting antics enumerated by Sugden, in which case the GSG and Astrakhan would be connected.

Controversial stuff, eh Lars?

Let's lose the ignore lists and play a while...

[Monty]

The Police NEVER officially thought the murderer to be Jewish.

Shore is the only Police Official who stated in a report that the killer was Jewish. Seeing as he didnt cite his source nor are there any other reports supporting Shores view, one can only take this as his own personal opinion and not that of the Force as a whole.

Monty

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike,


Whoever the killer was, his actions clearly ran contrary to any faith he may have adhered to.

Unless it was about revenge for some unknown affront to him. A Victorian jihadist, though I don't want to go there.

You can't get any less subtle than "Jewish" Mr. Astrakhan, Mike!

Aha... so my ideas connect to Hutchinson. Interesting.... Feel free to snip that bit and insert it in one of your Mr. P. battles. I kind of like the thought of GSG and Astrakhan being connected.

Cheers,

Mike

Hello all,

Since the only possible clue to his being anti-semetic is one possible interpretation of the Goulston Street scribble....being that he felt that Jews were trying to remain blameless for something they were guilty of, I would have to side with Mr P, that there is no evidence at all to suggest the killer hated Jews,.. or was one.

A police officials opinion of a Jewish Eastern European being the culprit is likely the most prejudicial comment we have in these cases, as it clearly was based on an opinion that local Jews would cover for a killer solely because he was Jewish. Now thats anti-semetic.

My best regards all.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

In, as already described, heavily Jewish populated areas, and with, according to Fishman, undoubtedly Jewish prostitutes in the East End, not one victim was Jewish. Not even non-canonicals.

Interesting observation, but surely the idea that a Jewish prostitute-killer (i.e. a prostitute killer who happens to be Jewish) wouldn't kill Jewish prostitutes carries as much or as little weight as the the idea than Gentile prostitute-killer wouldn't kill Gentile prostitutes? Whoever the killer was, his actions clearly ran contrary to any faith he may have adhered to.

If it were a blame shifter, why continue with Kelly without leaving some more blame clues?

You can't get any less subtle than "Jewish" Mr. Astrakhan, Mike!

[The Good Michael]

Two things that point to the murderer possibly being a Jew, rather than being an anti-Semite:

1. In, as already described, heavily Jewish populated areas, and with, according to Fishman, undoubtedly Jewish prostitutes in the East End, not one victim was Jewish. Not even non-canonicals.

2. Rather than being the work of someone trying to implicate Jews, the GSG quite simply is a message of warning against those who would blame the Jews for... whatever. If it was JTR's work, it's 50% likely it was either a Jew, or one trying to make it look like a Jew wrote it. In fact, 50% doesn't really work here as 50% of the population wasn't Jewish, but you get my meaning.

I don't see this as the work of an anti-Semite, or one wanting to shift the blame. If it were a blame shifter, why continue with Kelly without leaving some more blame clues? Oh, I forgot. Kelly is... different. Never mind.


Mike

[Mr Poster]

Ooohhh............found it!

The "plink, plink......fizz" of a madman being consigned to Ignore heaven.

Wheeeewwww,,,,,,,,,,

p