Elizabeth Jackson, JTR victim?

[corey123]

Pontius,

Throw out the ripper letters, they are not relavent. But as saying that he didnt try to prop the body, indeed he did. Pulling the legs up, pulling the apron above the waist, and in Chapman and Kellys case, the arm set in the abdomen AFTER mutilation. He did prop the body, that was part of the thrill he got after his murders. The horror was intended, that was the reason for his location of killing(partly) and the arrangment of the corpse.

Jack was a sadistical killer(as Im sure you know) and this is pretty much one of the more evil and unplesent types of serial killers. Take the "black daliah" murder for example. The killer shared some qualities of jack.

He was a sadist. He left Elizabeth Short in a fasion that showed he ment to put her where she was, he left her in a location to bring the maximum reaction. He left her almost right next to a walkway, in two peices, I believe as close as two feet away. The upper body(with the organs protruding and still intact) and the lower body. He cut a smile looking wound on each cheek from the mouth and took chunks out of her.

He proped her.

Ok, Annie Chapman, she was found with her legs drawn up, turned outward I believe. The skirt raised to her hips. He intestine pulled over her left should(I believe it was the left, I dont have the report in front of me at the time) and a chunk of abdominal skin above the right shoulder. She had her(one of them, cant remember which)arm resting in her abdomen, placed there AFTER mutilation.

He like the Killer of Stort, proped her for the same reason I stated above.

Yours truly

[corey123]

Debra, Pontius,

I think if the breasts HAD been cut off, that would more likely help your theory of her being a victim of the Ripper.

Pontius,

On your suggestion that the killer never really tried to contact the police, sadistic killers would more likely try to contact the family/and or loved ones of the victim to make them relive the murder. Police, I dont believe would have been the target. Unless they had become personally attached to the case. Also, proping the body would have been as much for the police as it was for the on lookers.

Yours truly

p.s. Im of the opinion that the chance of the police or civilians finding pieces of the "Torso murderer(s)" victims would rely rather on luck more than anything. Chance per say. So the fact that 90% or more of her body was found, really does not change anything, not saying she is a victim or the "torso killer(s)". Like you pontius, I am ill prepared in the Torso case besides my knowledge of Patterns in repeating offinders.

[sdreid]

The Book of Lists has her in their Top Ten.

[Debra A]

I've been badgering Debs for ages to do the definitive work.

Rob

You know what I'm like, Rob! I need a research/writing partner to motivate me

[corey123]

Debra,

You should definantly write a book on this case, trust me, I would be amung the first to buy it.

Yours truly

[Natalie Severn]

Corey,
The jury is out over whether Jack bothered to do all that.Dont forget he would have had to lift clothes to get at flesh......but would he have given any consideration to their modesty when he quit the scene rapidly to escape detection? Doubtful.Also it has been pointed out that in the case of all , save for Mary Kelly,the victims legs would have given under them ,gone akimbo , as soon as they were "subdued" by the killer through strangulation or throat cutting whichever,so he probably just left his victims like that.Mary Kelly was a bit different but since he was into disembowelling----again,would he have bothered to "rearrange'? limbs?
Best
Norma

[Debra A]

Debra,

Most of all I know about Jackson came from you. I believe I saw in one of your posts where from 3 years ago that someone named Ryan was in the process of writing a "torso" related book. any info on this?

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

I've not heard anything else on the S G Ryan work , which is a pity.

That book is the R Michael gordon book ? Tom's read it I believe and there are a few reviews around, Chris George did one for Ripperologist magazine I think.

[corey123]

Natilie,

I truly think he would take the time to do so. Many a killer have done mutilation to a woman and leave her fully dressed, many leave them nakid.

If you closely look at the placement of the bodies, you will see he DOES arrange them. How do you explain the hand resting in the empty abdomen? The facial mutilation? Placing the chunk of Chapmans flesh over her shoulder? The placement of the intestines? The placement of the Victims belongings?

This is no coincidence.

Also, if he had to lift the clothes, which he didnt have too, he didnt have a problem in cutting through Kate Eddowes clothing did he?

Kelly was no different besides the fact that he had more time. He was just as much into disembowling as he was in the first three(excluding stride due to, well you all know)

Yours truly

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi All,

I don't know that Ryan was writing a book, but he was writing a very long essay for Ripper Notes magazine that would comprise two or three issues. A big chunk of this he did finish and turn in to editor, Dan Norder, but Dan wanted the complete essay before publication. It never came and a couple of issues later, RN folded. From what I hear the work that was done was very good, but at this point, it seems possible that it will never be finished and see the light of day.

Nevertheless, I believe Debra has access to all the same info Ryan had and would do at least as good a job as Ryan of giving us the skinny on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

You know what I'm like, Rob! I need a research/writing partner to motivate me

I've offered and I think there's probably loads of other things we're going to right together.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

The Thames Torso Murders by R. Michael Gordon

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

If you can find a copy for $20-35 I recommend getting the book. It's a good, creepy read that works well as a primer on the mystery. However, there are a few serious caveats -

1) Gordon uses newspapers as his sole source, and not a variety of newspapers, so his resources were very limited. This means the book should never be looked at as an authoritative work.
2) Gordon is obsessed with George Chapman and assumes he killed every person who died in the LVP, so you have to put up with some of his Chapman ravings.
3) Gordon, in his obsession with Chapman, can be pretty loose with the facts at time, so don't get married to any conclusions presented in the book.

Nevertheless, it is a good read and I applaud Gordon for putting something out there on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

If you can find a copy for $20-35 I recommend getting the book. It's a good, creepy read that works well as a primer on the mystery. However, there are a few serious caveats -

1) Gordon uses newspapers as his sole source, and not a variety of newspapers, so his resources were very limited. This means the book should never be looked at as an authoritative work.
2) Gordon is obsessed with George Chapman and assumes he killed every person who died in the LVP, so you have to put up with some of his Chapman ravings.
3) Gordon, in his obsession with Chapman, can be pretty loose with the facts at time, so don't get married to any conclusions presented in the book.

Nevertheless, it is a good read and I applaud Gordon for putting something out there on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

I have contemplated getting this book, but had also read of his sources and of his obsession with chapman. But I might give it a look.

Thanks

[Natalie Severn]

Pontius2000,
The R Michael Gordon book is fairly well researched and covers a wide area of subject matter but there are one or two
mistakes made over time and place and this can be especially frustrating when he then speculates around a weakly supported statement which you are not sure is fact or not.Anyway, you are not always given the "source" for statements so you are sometimes unable to check his statements.
But the book is certainly worth reading and has useful time charts and cross checks of Torso murders with the suggested JtR victims of 1888 .
PS Have just read Tom"s insert and agree with him.That sums it up neatly.

[Uncle Jack]

I am currently researching the Torso case in great depth with the hope of writing a book about it. If all goes to plan then I will try get around to it. But Gordon's book is a good read.

[Debra A]

ooh, a race! Time to call KT definitely.