Elizabeth Jackson, JTR victim?

[Pontius2000]

I just read up on this case. and wow, it strikes me as a big possibility.

the only non-C5 victim that we ever hear much about is Tabram. but the job done on Jackson definitely bears the JTR calling card.

the first thing you'll read is that it was likely an abortion gone wrong. ok, understandable. and if that were the case, the beheading and amputation of limbs for disposal would also be understandable.

but what's NOT understandable in the case of a botched abortion are the other mutilations. many of which seem to match the job that was done on Mary Kelly.

Jackson's abdomen was opened and ALL the organs were removed from it. part of the right buttock was removed (same as Kelly).

Dr Bond stated that the deed appeared to have been done by someone with the anatomical experience of a butcher, but NOT the experience of a surgeon.

the medical men also stated that while there WAS evidence that she was pregnant (and a dead baby was found in the vicinity), there was no evidence to conclude that her death was due to a botched abortion. and since she was a prostitute, the fact that she was pregnant would probably not have mattered to JTR.

it seems like a likely case to me. This was not simply the case of a woman being killed and amputated for disposal. she was indeed mutilated as bad or worse than Mary Kelly.

Seems to me, either:

1. It WAS a botched abortion and the performer of the abortion mutilated her body to make it look like a Ripper killing.

or

2. It was the Ripper. and he was aware that the East End was too hot on his trails to leave mutilated bodies out in the open, so he made attempts in this case to dispose of the body so it would not be so quickly discovered.

now, I'm not saying this IS a Ripper killing. but it definitely merits a closer look than it has received. moreso than Mackenzie and Frances Coles. and it has a bearing on the case because if it WERE the Ripper, then at least one major Ripper suspect would be exonerated.

[Dave James]

Elizabeth Jackson

Hi Pontious,

Nice post.

I'm not sure about Liz as a victim, but I too was reading about her recently and wondered what do you do next after the carnage of Miller's Court, if you haven't committed suicide because your mind gave way.

Could something like this be the next escalation? Possibly.

All the best
Dave

[Debra A]

Hi,
Of particular interst if you are making a case for Elizabeth Jackson as a ripper victim, is the removal of '3 flaps of skin' from the abdomen I think.
I one posted a comparison of the description of Elizabeth's 'mutilations' compared to Mary Kelly's and the similarities were quite striking. I don't know where that post is now though.

[Debra A]

I found it, here's the comparison between some of the mutilations on Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Jackson;

Mary Kelly-The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. ......... the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation, and part of the right buttock. The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched


Elizabeth Jackson-The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus[external organs of generation], and part of the skin of the right buttock.
Head and neck taken off opposite the 6th cervical vertebra.


here's the whole thread
Why so little focus

[corey123]

Hello Pontius,

The idea that jackson could be a ripper victim is entertaining, but there are several factors that may make this comparison difficult. I know what most all of you know about the torso murders, and Im no expert(however I believe Debra is the authority on the torso case). She might be able to help me out.

First, if there was another murder after Kelly, I would be supprised if the extent of mutilations were more severe and even shocked if they were the same. The only way I think the mutilations would be as severe as in Kellys case would be if the killer had the same circumstances on his side. It would most likely be indoors, like kelly to let him, again play the fantasy out.

I dont remember where Jacksons torso was found, but the methodology shown by the torso killer would be most likely abducting the women, then disembowling them in a isolated and secure location, then disposal of the limbs. The killer did not try at great lengths, as did Jack the Ripper, to display the body, but tried more to hide them.

I think its likely that she was a ripper victim, but in my opinion, she would have all be there, cut up, but there, all the peices, not scattered about.

I also believe that the killer(s)(torso murderer) more than likely never stopped killing, and probally killed more than those four found. Way more.

Debra,

If I made any errors, please feel free to correct them.

Yours truly

[Tom_Wescott]

Messrs Pilot and James,

These 'torso' murders are long overdue for a proper, unbiased write-up. I say we haunt Debra until she gives in and gives us what we want.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

That's sounds like a very good summary of the case against, Corey.
There has been a flip side to the argument, suggested at one time by AP Wolf, that maybe Mary kelly was destined to be dumped in the Thames.

On another note, there are other contemporary examples of cases of criminal abortion where the victim has been dismembered and dumped in the same fashion as Elizabeth Jackson, including removal of all the contents of the pelvis and abdomen to disguise the true nature of the crime.

[Debra A]

Messrs Pilot and James,

These 'torso' murders are long overdue for a proper, unbiased write-up. I say we haunt Debra until she gives in and gives us what we want.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've been trying to write something for 3 years, Tom...I need a typist, someone quick like KT!

[corey123]

Debra,

If an abortion gone wrong was the motive, then she would not even be a torso victim would she?

I think if Kelly had been destined for the Thames, the Thames she would go. I have no doubt in my mind that if Kelly was a victim or the Torso Killer(s) she would have been disposed of in a similar fasion.

From a prolific standpoint, the "Ripper crimes" seem to be sexual in nature, when the "torso crimes" dont necissarily show so.

Again, this is all from my little knowledge of the Torso murders, which is pretty much the injurys of the four cases you talked about in your wounderful thread about the mortitions notes.

On a personal note, do you know of any good books on the Victorian torso murders? I am thinking about ordering the one written by R. Micheal Gordon, is that reliable?

Yours truly

p.s A good example of what I think Jackson's body would look like if she had been killed by jack the ripper would be like the crime scene photos of the "Black Daliah" if any of you have seen them. Horrible photos, but an exalent example, the mutilations turned up a notch though and most likely without that horrible cut across her mouth.

[Pontius2000]

I dont remember where Jacksons torso was found, but the methodology shown by the torso killer would be most likely abducting the women, then disembowling them in a isolated and secure location, then disposal of the limbs. The killer did not try at great lengths, as did Jack the Ripper, to display the body, but tried more to hide them.

Jackson's body parts were all found separately in the Thames. in most cases that I could find, they were wrapped up separately in clothing. If I remember correctly, everything was found but the head, stomach, and lungs. everything inside the abdomen and chest was removed except part of the wind pipe.

and if I understood it correctly, the breasts were removed. so you have the breasts removed, the abdomen removed in 3 separate flaps, and part of the right buttocks. very similar to Kelly.


as for the "public display" part. I have followed the JTR case for many years. the more I've thought on it, I don't think he was out to make a public display. I really don't think he cared about a public display one way or another. he did his deed and left the bodies where they lay. I do think though that if Jackson were a Ripper victim, that he had become very aware that leaving the bodies about was causing too much of a sensation and thus, too much heat on him.

It's pretty clear that all of the "Ripper letters", with the lone exception POSSIBLY being the From Hell letter, were hoaxes. and if he wasn't interested in taunting the police through letters, then he probably wasn't interested in a public display of the bodies either.


I don't know about the torso victims too much. I know that Jackson was absolutely mutilated and that most of her body was found. I believe another torso's abdomen was opened, but don't know to what extent. another I believe was pretty well intact. but I wouldn't necessarily classify Jackson as a "torso victim" because about 95% of her body was found.

[Debra A]

Debra,

If an abortion gone wrong was the motive, then she would not even be a torso victim would she?

I think if Kelly had been destined for the Thames, the Thames she would go. I have no doubt in my mind that if Kelly was a victim or the Torso Killer(s) she would have been disposed of in a similar fasion.

From a prolific standpoint, the "Ripper crimes" seem to be sexual in nature, when the "torso crimes" dont necissarily show so.

Again, this is all from my little knowledge of the Torso murders, which is pretty much the injurys of the four cases you talked about in your wounderful thread about the mortitions notes.

On a personal note, do you know of any good books on the Victorian torso murders? I am thinking about ordering the one written by R. Micheal Gordon, is that reliable?

Yours truly

p.s A good example of what I think Jackson's body would look like if she had been killed by jack the ripper would be like the crime scene photos of the "Black Daliah" if any of you have seen them. Horrible photos, but an exalent example, the mutilations turned up a notch though and most likely without that horrible cut across her mouth.

I agree with your first point, if Elizabeth was the victim of a concealed botched abortion then she may only have a link to one other of the so called torso victims, the Whitehall torso. All the pelvis and pelvic organs were missing in that case too, including the uterus, but that may be more by accident than design.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs,

Ha ha. If you call KT don't tell her I sent you! I'm at work and just spoke to a customer named Tommy Hebert. Small world.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

Messrs Pilot and James,

These 'torso' murders are long overdue for a proper, unbiased write-up. I say we haunt Debra until she gives in and gives us what we want.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've been badgering Debs for ages to do the definitive work.

Rob

[Pontius2000]

Debra,

Most of all I know about Jackson came from you. I believe I saw in one of your posts where from 3 years ago that someone named Ryan was in the process of writing a "torso" related book. any info on this?

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

[Debra A]

and if I understood it correctly, the breasts were removed. so you have the breasts removed, the abdomen removed in 3 separate flaps, and part of the right buttocks. very similar to Kelly.

Hi,
The breasts were still present in the Jackson case. It is sometimes said that the breast were removed in the Rainham case, but I think that is a misreading of the newspaper reports, and it was that the upper torso that included the breasts was just never recovered.