Some Definitions Please!

[ChrisGeorge]

What does a deerstalker hat actually look like?

Here is Basil Rathbone in the role of Sherlock Holmes wearing a deerstalker...



Also check out the images here.

Chris

[Errata]

Stays were not shorter than corsets. Technically, it started out that stays and corsets were two separate garments. First one puts on the chemise, the the stays, which cinch the body. The corset was a placed over the stays to smooth out the lines, and then was cinched tightly to pull in the waist. They were not meant to "lift and separate" as today's bras do. In Elizabethan times they flattened the breasts, and spread them out to minimize the appearance of a separate bustline. At that point, the desired shape was a cinched waist, ample hips, and a cylindrical torso. In the 18th century, especially in France, the breasts were lifted, and then the bottom half of the breasts squashed, causing the upper half of the breast to be thrust up and out in that peculiar Regency look. In the Victorian times the desired shape was.. awful. It was called pigeon breasted, the breasts shoved up and then squashed together, making it look like ladies had a deformity of the sternum. Wasp waist and narrow hips completed the shape, as bustles were the thing, and it wouldn't do to have wide hips and a bustled rear. In order to achieve this shape, stays were long. High on the bust, low over the hips and bottom. Working women had a slightly different shape. Because they had to bend, it ended at the waist, but was still relatively high on the bust.

Which goes towards the definition of the word, but not necessarily the reality.

Very little of that applies to these ladies. It doesn't do any good to estimate how the stays were situated on the body, because these women weren't wearing them. Not technically. What makes stays stiff is the boning, and often it was whalebone. Women were literally caging themselves. Street women didn't have access to that kind of material, and certainly couldn't go out and buy underwear that fit. So they made their own. Some women, like Catherine Eddowes, used a vest. But the most common method was to sew rope or cord on the inside of a corset (with no stays), vest, or undershirt that fit tightly. Or simply to wear a corset with no stays.

So why would someone say stays when there were no stays? For the same reason we say "corset" when we mean "stays". Because this is the time when stays and corsets are being combined. And the two terms were used interchangeably, the way we interchange stockings and pantyhose (which are also not technically the same thing). A corset with no stays could be called stays, stays with no corset could be called a corset, and any undergarment that was supposed to function as either stays or corset could be called either one. However, since the clothing of the day was cut in the assumption that a woman was wearing some form of that undergarment, if a woman was to fit in second/third/ninth hand clothing, she would have to cinch her waist some in order to get into it, or buy a garment several sizes larger. So a brief underbust arrangement (which really wasn't a thing until the Teens) wouldn't be enough. It would have to at least be down to the waist, which is technically about an inch above the navel.

[robhouse]

Which then begs the question, "what is a nap?"

Luckly, I'm trusting my wife here (ex weaver), the "nap" is the length of hair? or fibre, or that which can be brushed. A leather hat has no nap, a silk hat has a short nap which is brushed in one direction only.

If this is the case then a Wideawake hat is made of a material which does not require being brushed, is that what we are to understand?
So a Wideawake hat is not a style but refers to the material it is made from?

From wikipedia:

"Primarily, nap is the raised (fuzzy) surface on certain kinds of cloth, such as velvet. Nap can refer additionally to other surfaces that look like the surface of a napped cloth, such as the surface of a felt or beaver hat.
Starting around the 14th century, the word referred originally to the roughness of woven cloth before it was sheared. When cloth, especially woollen cloth, is woven, the surface of the cloth is not smooth, and this roughness is the nap. Generally the cloth is then 'sheared' to create an even surface, and the nap is thus removed.... In the finishing process of manufacturing textiles, after the cloth is woven, it goes through processes such as washing, fulling, raising the nap, and trimming the nap. After the nap is trimmed, the fabric is considered finished."

Oddly though, I also saw a reference to the "Wide Awake" political party in the US around the time of the American Civil War:

"The Wide Awake hat was inspired by the paramilitary campaign organization of the 1860s. The Wide Awakes, affiliated with the Republican Party during the 1860 election, supported Abraham Lincoln and the Union while strongly opposing slavery." (see https://www.bollman140.com/1860/hat.cfm)

This is making me very confused, but I wonder if the term Wide Awake Hat has a different meaning in the US versus England.

RH

[Robert]

Rob, I think the wideawake hats go back to the 18th century Quakers.

But as for the nap, snooker and billiard tables have a nap, and whether one is playing a shot with or against the nap can make an appreciable difference to the run of the balls. American pool tables apparently have no nap.

[Bridewell]

Bother!

Rob, I think the wideawake hats go back to the 18th century Quakers.

But as for the nap, snooker and billiard tables have a nap, and whether one is playing a shot with or against the nap can make an appreciable difference to the run of the balls. American pool tables apparently have no nap.

That's just the point I was going to make! My recollection is that shots played from the baulk end of the table are with the nap, whereas those played towards baulk are against. Presumably, if they have no nap, pool tables are covered in a material other than baize?

The earlier post referring to the wideawake as a hat with no nap makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why it was so-called, but didn't want to show my ignorance by asking!

[Phil Carter]

That's just the point I was going to make! My recollection is that shots played from the baulk end of the table are with the nap, whereas those played towards baulk are against. Presumably, if they have no nap, pool tables are covered in a material other than baize?

The earlier post referring to the wideawake as a hat with no nap makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why it was so-called, but didn't want to show my ignorance by asking!

Hello Bridewell,


You are correct about the direction of the nap on snooker tables. As I was taught it, it was to do with two things due to the thìckness of the baize. And the direction of the cut. When brushing the cloth one brushes 'with' the nap. Upwards. To ensure the cloth lays down correctly.

Seasons greetings

Phil

[Wickerman]

"The Wide Awake hat was inspired by the paramilitary campaign organization of the 1860s. The Wide Awakes, affiliated with the Republican Party during the 1860 election, supported Abraham Lincoln and the Union while strongly opposing slavery." (see https://www.bollman140.com/1860/hat.cfm)

This is making me very confused, but I wonder if the term Wide Awake Hat has a different meaning in the US versus England.

RH

Actually Rob, that explanation was what I had considered to be the origin of the term, though I have not researched to see if the name was used before the 1860's, either in the UK or USA.

We have talked about a relationship between not having a "nap" and being "wide-awake", but surely there were any number of hats made of a material which had no nap (directional surface), are they all called Wideawake because of this, no matter the style? I think not.
So I suspect the relationship between "nap" and "wideawake" is nothing more than an amusing coincidence. Subject to further research.

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

There is an 1848 newspaper reference to a man wearing a wideawake straw hat.

[Errata]

I imagine it's one of those things. Baseball caps do not play baseball, nor do a majority of the people who wear them. But the design spread beyond it's titular consumer, so the name applies to the style now and not the function or properties.

[Wickerman]

I'm pretty sure that the term Wideawake has more to do with the hat having a wide brim, whether the hat had a nap or not being immaterial.

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

I found this online (see: http://thesewingacademy.org/index.ph...9&topic=5235.0)

In reply to a question mentioning both quaker style hats and hats worn by republicans...

"I am suspecting that you have two kinds of Wideawake hats going on here. The young supporters of Lincoln in the 1860 election called themselve "Wideawakes" and wore kepi style hats (and cloaks) made out of oil cloth. The oilcloth had no fuzz or nap - get the pun? - no nap ... "wideawake" .... They organized night-time torchlight parades and crowed about their vigilance."

And a picture:

[robhouse]

I'm pretty sure that the term Wideawake has more to do with the hat having a wide brim, whether the hat had a nap or not being immaterial.

Regards, Jon S.

I think you are probably right, but there does seem to be a bit of confusion. At least I am now confused.

[Wickerman]

Bollman Hat Company digs deep into the annals of its history to capture and commemorate this long forgotten style. The Wide Awake hat was inspired by the paramilitary campaign organization of the 1860s. The Wide Awakes, affiliated with the Republican Party during the 1860 election, supported Abraham Lincoln and the Union while strongly opposing slavery.

The Wide Awakes were well-drilled and served as political police in escorting party speakers and in preserving order at party demonstrations and had over 400,000 estimated members. The standard Wide Awake uniform consisted of a full robe or cape, a torch, and of course the black hat for which we pay tribute. The Bollman Hat Company produced this hat and all of their hats in black only when George Bollman and Isaac Sowers first opened their hat factory in Adamstown, Pennsylvania in 1868.

https://www.bollman140.com/1860/hat.cfm

A Wideawake Hat also known as a Quaker hat, is a men’s hat worn by Quakers who settled in parts of the United States in 18th and 19th centuries. Rembrandt was wearing a style of Wideawake Hat in his 1632 self portrait.

Wideawakes are usually made from black or brown felt and have a fairly wide brim that is upturned slightly from the base of the hat on the left and right sides, while being pretty flat on the front and back with a fairly blunt top as opposed to the well rounded top of a bowler. Usually there is also a fairly tall black hatband around the base, just above the brim.

http://hatguide.co.uk/wideawake-hat/

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

Hi Jon,

Well, the problem with that quote you posted is that the Wide Awakes did not (apparently) wear a wide brimmed hat, but instead wore a kepi style hat, as can be seen both in the picture at the top of this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Awakes) and in the period cartoon of Abe Lincoln posted above.

RH

[Wickerman]

Rob.
Perhaps these Wideawakes conducted themselves along the lines of a military assembly where the officers or decision makers wore a different hat to what the regulars wore.
Both Union & Confederate officers wore wide brimmed hats as opposed to the regulars who wore a kepi.
Would the 'Wideawake' style be based on what an Officer wore, or what a regular wore?

Regards, Jon S.