Is this a realistic theory?

[lynn cates]

obviousness

Hello Ben.

"He argued that Chapman and Eddowes fell victim to different killers, a view so astounding in its obvious wrongness . . ."

Perhaps wrong. But how is it obvious?

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

On the basis of tremendous similarity between the Eddowes and Chapman murders, I'd say the chances of them having fallen victim to different killers are virtually non-existent.

Best regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

same/different

Hello Ben. There are, indeed, similarities. But there are also differences. They may well be by the same hand. But my point is that it's not obvious--at least not to me.

If only we could see the wounds first person!

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

It is extremely rare, in serial cases, to encounter the sort of similarity displayed by the Chapman and Eddowes murders. Even the most consistent of captured serial offenders would be hard-pressed to rival the Chapman-to-Eddowes progression in terms of similarity. The differences pale into insignificance with this in mind.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

object

Hello Ben. I suppose a good deal depends on the object. If it is merely to kill, I presume there would be a good deal of difference. Indeed, this seems to be the case with serial killers--as you point out.

Of course, gangland killings, meant to inspire terror in wayward members, can look a great deal alike, even with different hands involved. (I am thinking of hands tied; bullet in the back of the head; and so on.)

Thanks!

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Once again I wanted to address the issue of skill and knowledge. Perhaps this is a mistake bundling the 2 skill sets,..... Ive been reviewing the opinions of the physicians at the Inquests, and it is clear with at least Annie and Kate that we do have on record stated opinions as to anatomical knowledge. They exist in the Nichols Inquest as well.

Ive been accepting these opinions because I think lacking any known reason why they should be questioned as legitimate sources, we should....but its clearer to me now that they did not really portray the skill with a knife as an equal skill set to his knowledge.

I wonder though if Phillips codicil about the level of skill he felt was present with Annies injuries, more or less present due to the consequence of haste"...is enough to address that to some degree...in that he had ample dexterity and some degree of confidence in the cuts.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

please, don't tell me that Eddowes has been cleanly ripped up. It's a butchery, even not accomplished by a butcher.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Garry Wroe]

Given the present discussion, Mike, I thought the following extract from my book might be of interest:-

'But it is the latter-day serialist who places the Ripper’s exploits in their truest light, medically untrained killers like Ed Gein who beheaded victims as well as removing internal organs and large areas of skin. Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Dennis Nilsen, Andrei Chikatilo, Fritz Haarman, Karl Denke and Joachim Kroll each fall into a similar category, representing an arbitrary sample of non-medico murderers who have exhibited tremendous dexterity in dismemberment and organ removal. In addition to performing these same ritualistic acts, Ed Kemper learned from experience that, by slicing through a victim’s Achilles tendons, he could stave off crural rigor mortis, a process which, if left unchecked, severely inhibits necrophilic activity. And when in 1959 Birmingham police were alerted to the murder of Stephanie Baird, they became convinced that the man responsible had undergone medical training, a view endorsed by Dr Francis Camps after he had examined the body. Apart from being decapitated, Stephanie had been mutilated in a manner that stirred echoes of Mary Kelly. This prompted investigators to interview four thousand butchers as well as hundreds of medical students. These inquiries led nowhere. Then, quite by chance, the murderer was apprehended. He turned out to be Patrick Byrne, a twenty-eight year old Dubliner of below average intelligence who earned his living as a building site labourer.'

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder though if Phillips codicil about the level of skill he felt was present with Annies injuries, more or less present due to the consequence of haste"...is enough to address that to some degree...in that he had ample dexterity and some degree of confidence in the cuts.

I think it has rather more to do with the possibility that Bagster Phillips found it uncomfortable to admit that any old so-and-so could do what members of his particular circle were paid handsomely to do.

[Gman992]

Whenever I watch Jack the Ripper movies, he's always portrayed as a man dressed in a top hat, wearing expensive clothes, and carrying around a doctor's bag. Because, if I was a detective on the case, the first question, I would ask of the ragged, under-norished, motley-clothed group of people who crowded around the body would be, "Okay, did anyone see anybody out of the ordinary? Anyone who looked liked he didn't belong here?"

[caz]

Given the present discussion, Mike, I thought the following extract from my book might be of interest:-

'But it is the latter-day serialist who places the Ripper’s exploits in their truest light, medically untrained killers like Ed Gein who beheaded victims as well as removing internal organs and large areas of skin. Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Dennis Nilsen, Andrei Chikatilo, Fritz Haarman, Karl Denke and Joachim Kroll each fall into a similar category, representing an arbitrary sample of non-medico murderers who have exhibited tremendous dexterity in dismemberment and organ removal. In addition to performing these same ritualistic acts, Ed Kemper learned from experience that, by slicing through a victim’s Achilles tendons, he could stave off crural rigor mortis, a process which, if left unchecked, severely inhibits necrophilic activity. And when in 1959 Birmingham police were alerted to the murder of Stephanie Baird, they became convinced that the man responsible had undergone medical training, a view endorsed by Dr Francis Camps after he had examined the body. Apart from being decapitated, Stephanie had been mutilated in a manner that stirred echoes of Mary Kelly. This prompted investigators to interview four thousand butchers as well as hundreds of medical students. These inquiries led nowhere. Then, quite by chance, the murderer was apprehended. He turned out to be Patrick Byrne, a twenty-eight year old Dubliner of below average intelligence who earned his living as a building site labourer.'

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

Hi Garry,

For me, this puts the lid on the whole surgical/medical/butchery expertise debate.

Several myths may wither and die whenever another brute of a killer is identified. Sadly it doesn't usually take long for someone to sow the seeds again, usually quoting some 'expert' or other, and the same old myths get trotted out and watered by the converts.

Nice to see that your post seems to have delivered a timely dash of weedkiller.

Love,

Caz
X

[Garry Wroe]

It’s the self-fulfilling prophesy, I’m afraid, Caz. Anyone who suspects that the Whitechapel Murderer’s mutilations betrayed medical finesse will find plenty of ‘supporting evidence’ amongst newspaper and other case-related sources. A suspicion then becomes a likelihood, irrespective of the overwhelming statistical evidence to the contrary. Sadly, it’s the nature of the beast.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.