Is this a realistic theory?

[Garry Wroe]

It’s the self-fulfilling prophesy, I’m afraid, Caz. Anyone who suspects that the Whitechapel Murderer’s mutilations betrayed medical finesse will find plenty of ‘supporting evidence’ amongst newspaper and other case-related sources. A suspicion then becomes a likelihood, irrespective of the overwhelming statistical evidence to the contrary. Sadly, it’s the nature of the beast.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[caz]

Given the present discussion, Mike, I thought the following extract from my book might be of interest:-

'But it is the latter-day serialist who places the Ripper’s exploits in their truest light, medically untrained killers like Ed Gein who beheaded victims as well as removing internal organs and large areas of skin. Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Dennis Nilsen, Andrei Chikatilo, Fritz Haarman, Karl Denke and Joachim Kroll each fall into a similar category, representing an arbitrary sample of non-medico murderers who have exhibited tremendous dexterity in dismemberment and organ removal. In addition to performing these same ritualistic acts, Ed Kemper learned from experience that, by slicing through a victim’s Achilles tendons, he could stave off crural rigor mortis, a process which, if left unchecked, severely inhibits necrophilic activity. And when in 1959 Birmingham police were alerted to the murder of Stephanie Baird, they became convinced that the man responsible had undergone medical training, a view endorsed by Dr Francis Camps after he had examined the body. Apart from being decapitated, Stephanie had been mutilated in a manner that stirred echoes of Mary Kelly. This prompted investigators to interview four thousand butchers as well as hundreds of medical students. These inquiries led nowhere. Then, quite by chance, the murderer was apprehended. He turned out to be Patrick Byrne, a twenty-eight year old Dubliner of below average intelligence who earned his living as a building site labourer.'

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

Hi Garry,

For me, this puts the lid on the whole surgical/medical/butchery expertise debate.

Several myths may wither and die whenever another brute of a killer is identified. Sadly it doesn't usually take long for someone to sow the seeds again, usually quoting some 'expert' or other, and the same old myths get trotted out and watered by the converts.

Nice to see that your post seems to have delivered a timely dash of weedkiller.

Love,

Caz
X

[Gman992]

Whenever I watch Jack the Ripper movies, he's always portrayed as a man dressed in a top hat, wearing expensive clothes, and carrying around a doctor's bag. Because, if I was a detective on the case, the first question, I would ask of the ragged, under-norished, motley-clothed group of people who crowded around the body would be, "Okay, did anyone see anybody out of the ordinary? Anyone who looked liked he didn't belong here?"

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder though if Phillips codicil about the level of skill he felt was present with Annies injuries, more or less present due to the consequence of haste"...is enough to address that to some degree...in that he had ample dexterity and some degree of confidence in the cuts.

I think it has rather more to do with the possibility that Bagster Phillips found it uncomfortable to admit that any old so-and-so could do what members of his particular circle were paid handsomely to do.

[Garry Wroe]

Given the present discussion, Mike, I thought the following extract from my book might be of interest:-

'But it is the latter-day serialist who places the Ripper’s exploits in their truest light, medically untrained killers like Ed Gein who beheaded victims as well as removing internal organs and large areas of skin. Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Dennis Nilsen, Andrei Chikatilo, Fritz Haarman, Karl Denke and Joachim Kroll each fall into a similar category, representing an arbitrary sample of non-medico murderers who have exhibited tremendous dexterity in dismemberment and organ removal. In addition to performing these same ritualistic acts, Ed Kemper learned from experience that, by slicing through a victim’s Achilles tendons, he could stave off crural rigor mortis, a process which, if left unchecked, severely inhibits necrophilic activity. And when in 1959 Birmingham police were alerted to the murder of Stephanie Baird, they became convinced that the man responsible had undergone medical training, a view endorsed by Dr Francis Camps after he had examined the body. Apart from being decapitated, Stephanie had been mutilated in a manner that stirred echoes of Mary Kelly. This prompted investigators to interview four thousand butchers as well as hundreds of medical students. These inquiries led nowhere. Then, quite by chance, the murderer was apprehended. He turned out to be Patrick Byrne, a twenty-eight year old Dubliner of below average intelligence who earned his living as a building site labourer.'

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

please, don't tell me that Eddowes has been cleanly ripped up. It's a butchery, even not accomplished by a butcher.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Once again I wanted to address the issue of skill and knowledge. Perhaps this is a mistake bundling the 2 skill sets,..... Ive been reviewing the opinions of the physicians at the Inquests, and it is clear with at least Annie and Kate that we do have on record stated opinions as to anatomical knowledge. They exist in the Nichols Inquest as well.

Ive been accepting these opinions because I think lacking any known reason why they should be questioned as legitimate sources, we should....but its clearer to me now that they did not really portray the skill with a knife as an equal skill set to his knowledge.

I wonder though if Phillips codicil about the level of skill he felt was present with Annies injuries, more or less present due to the consequence of haste"...is enough to address that to some degree...in that he had ample dexterity and some degree of confidence in the cuts.

Best regards all.

[lynn cates]

object

Hello Ben. I suppose a good deal depends on the object. If it is merely to kill, I presume there would be a good deal of difference. Indeed, this seems to be the case with serial killers--as you point out.

Of course, gangland killings, meant to inspire terror in wayward members, can look a great deal alike, even with different hands involved. (I am thinking of hands tied; bullet in the back of the head; and so on.)

Thanks!

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

It is extremely rare, in serial cases, to encounter the sort of similarity displayed by the Chapman and Eddowes murders. Even the most consistent of captured serial offenders would be hard-pressed to rival the Chapman-to-Eddowes progression in terms of similarity. The differences pale into insignificance with this in mind.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

same/different

Hello Ben. There are, indeed, similarities. But there are also differences. They may well be by the same hand. But my point is that it's not obvious--at least not to me.

If only we could see the wounds first person!

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

On the basis of tremendous similarity between the Eddowes and Chapman murders, I'd say the chances of them having fallen victim to different killers are virtually non-existent.

Best regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

obviousness

Hello Ben.

"He argued that Chapman and Eddowes fell victim to different killers, a view so astounding in its obvious wrongness . . ."

Perhaps wrong. But how is it obvious?

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Neither of you addressed specifically viability of the Chapman comments made by the man that examined her.

That's precisely what I did, Mike.

I examined the acute specifics of Phillips' conclusions, and explained in detail my reasons for believing several of them to be in error, or at the very least, not in accordance with the mutilations he described. He argued that Chapman and Eddowes fell victim to different killers, a view so astounding in its obvious wrongness that one would be churlish in the extreme to shun any consideration of the possibility that he could have been equally wrong in attributing so much skill to Chapman's killer, especially when there was no second opinion offered as there was in the case of Eddowes.

I wouldn't be able to do anything the doctor might refer to as "clean".

You can't possibly know this. Amid the overwhelming evidence of crude butchery evincing no skill or knowledge whatsoever, it isn't remotely unlikely that a very small percentage of the total mutilations might accidentally have indicated skill, largely on account of luck. Better than assuming that the vast majority of mutilations accidentally point towards inexperience.

Either way, a novice didnt cut into Annie

Well, he wouldn't have been a complete novice in terms of dispatching and mutilating prostitutes by that stage.

The argument that some Canonical Murders dont show skill or knowledge doesnt then mean that the one man who did them showed that he could be skilled then inept...its more likely representative of the probable answer that one man didnt kill all the women.

No, it's more likely that one man was responsible for most of them, and the minority opinion advocating the "skill" angle were mistaken. It wouldn't have been the first time that skill or knowledge were erroneously assigned to a mutilating serial killer.

Hope you had a good Christmas!

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Thanks for the correction, Gareth!

[Reynard]

So I'm back. Sorry I haven't been here in a while, chalk it up to the chaos of life. Anyway, I can't believe a few questions sparked off this much debate (admittedly it was so long I didn't end up reading all the arguements.)

Tnb: I'm kind of torn between putting my whole idea as it stands on here. I mean, I've discussed the story idea from which this branched off from on another site...but still. Would you mind if I sent it to you by email to see what you think?

And as for downloading the podcast, I wish I could. My Dad got me an ipod nano years ago but I never really used it and I still haven't worked with it much.

I actually quoted the man who examined her, who records that Chapman's belly was scooped away on one side, and her colon cut through.Please, don't classify me as a layman when it comes to matters anatomical or biological. I may not have a degree in those specific subjects, but that doesn't negate the fact that I've been steeped in them for some 35 years now... which is more than can be said for Wynne Baxter, whose dangerous lay-speculation is so often misapplied as fact.
... better make sure it's crude, Mike - in memory of Polly's, Annie's, Kate's and Mary's eviscerations

Very nice finish off there Sam, I chuckled out loud . And have no fear.. I wasnt referring to you as a layman....I thought I was showing how someone of average knowledge in the area of anatomy just off the street might come prepared to do what was done to some of the women....someone like myself, as I suggested, even with the requisite tools of the inexperienced field surgeon like you suggest he was, would be unable to even begin to cut and find an organ to take, let alone a specific one...which Phillips did believe was the case with Annies killer.

I guess my bottom line is that we do have comments to use from contemporary physicians that suggested that the killer had some anatomical knowledge...in very much the same way Philip Sugden says that the "Contemporary evidence suggests that the killer had at least some anatomical knowledge."

I know thats not likely accepted by you and Ben,...but I believe that it may be the case in some Canonical deaths.

My best to you Sam, and you Lynn. Merry Xmas!