Sometimes, a clear the air thing helps.. will this?

[tnb]

If it wasn't for the fact that the author comes out and says 'London...1887-89...(several) murders of women' etc then I'd say there was some deliberate muddying of the waters here to stop the case being identified (some hope!), then again there is also that curious wording 'may have happened' (in the Whitechapel case). Hedging their bets as to MJK's status as a 'Ripper' victim (although inluding 4 other dubious ones?) or perhaps trying to distance themselves from claims of sensationalism, cashing in or whatever, albeit clumsily?

I do think it would be interesting to say the least to know the provenance of the authors' information - I was hoping Stewart would enlighten us as I know he tends to do quite a lot of research into the items in his collection. Anyone else any ideas, this is so obscure it's well beyond my research capabilities.

Phil - out of the blue I know and if we want to discuss it further I will of course take it over to the relevant thread, but while you're on a devil's advocate trip, what's your opinion on the Stephen White 'sighting'? A few of us have been trying to see if any sense can be made of it recently, but it's not a popular position....

[Stewart P Evans]

Missing

Hello Stewart,
I have read and re-read your posting of the original pages from the book you posess. (Thank you for doing so) And although I can see the obvious referral to MJK, there is a minor point I wish to make.
It does NOT specifically say the heart was missing...
quote..
"... In this case to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room..."
That can, in my humble opinion, be read that the heart was, for example, laying loose within the body cavity, or elsewhere on her body or on her bed.
The writer has also said that the victim was naked, which she was not.
It may be picking at points, but it doesn't actually state the heart was missing, which was the original basis of my point.
respectfully,
Phil
....

The above summary of the Kelly murder scene must be read in conjunction with the Bond notes (probably written at his dictation by his assistant Hebbert). In these notes Bond states, "...the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera...the viscera were found in various parts viz; the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side & the spleen by the left side of the body."

He later states, "The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent." These notes alone have always caused me to favour the idea that the heart was totally missing from the scene - as he actually mentions the location of all the other major internal organs. The finding of the notes in the Hamilton volume, several years ago, resulted in the additional comment that, "In this case, to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered [sic] about the room..." The overwhelming conclusion must be, in my opinion, that the heart was totally missing from the scene.

There is no other mention of the heart whatsoever, but in any post mortem report the condition of that organ is always stated. It is not here, despite the fact that he comments on the condition of the lungs, "On opening the thorax it was found that the right lung was minimally adherent by old firm adhesions. The lower part of the lung was torn away. The left lung was intact; It was adherent at the apex & there were a few adhesions over the side. In the substances of the lung were several nodules of consolidation."

The total omission of any other comment on the heart, other than it was missing, can only indicate that it was just that - missing.

[Stewart P Evans]

It Must Be Remembered

Stewart - I may be wrong but that is an interesting reference to NINE victims between 1887-1889 given the time, I was under the impression that at the time of the murders a lot of the popular press had the victim count at 7 (including Tabram and I assume Smith, or 'Fairy Fay'), and quite a few mooted the point re. Coles (as did Scotland Yard) but who are they proposing as no. 9? I was under the impression that by the 1890's most within the medico-legal professions were working largely along the lines of McNaghten's '5'?
1894 is the year of the Cutbush story obviously, and a proposed date for the Mcnaghten Memoranda on that basis (as we all know) - do we think this piece may fit into that particular puzzle in some way? Or was it at the time too obscure to register?
Does anyone know where Hamilton/ Godkin got their info from regarding the Whitechapel murders? Is there a link with a case doctor here or is it purely anecdotal? The latter would suggest that the slight discrepancies (ie MJK being naked) may be nothing more sinister than Chinese whispers across the Atlantic.
That said - would finding a pair of breasts under the head and a uterus elsewhere in the room a pretty good hint towards a body's gender???

It must be remembered that over these years there were many unsolved murders, including the so-called 'torso murders', in London. Eleven of these murders, Emma Smith in April 1888 to Frances Coles in February 1891, were all placed together under the heading of 'the Whitechapel murders', actually a misnomer. The Ripper murders, however many there may have been, were actually only a part of the Whitechapel murders.

The actual number of Ripper murders is unknown - obviously, as the killer was never caught. Ergo there was (and is) no consensus of opinion, even by the police, as to which murders were the work of a single individual. This caused, and still causes, much confusion, especially in the press. This, again, is reflected in books written about the murders. The situation is further exacerbated when presumptions are made by others who are not au fait with the case but are using the Whitechapel murders to illustrate various points.

In the preface to the book Allan McLane Hamilton wrote (inter alia) - "The thanks of the editor are due to Dr. Hebbert, lately associated with Mr. Bond, the Coroner of London [sic], England, who has, in conjunction with Dr. F.A. Harris, presented for the first time in a book of medical jurisprudence the records of the Whitechapel murder cases, and the deductions therefrom, which must in future play a great part in the determination of the identity of the dead body."

Using the Kelly murder to illustrate the identification of the sex of a mutilated body is really a bit of a nonsense - for there was plenty at the scene to show the body was female. But I get the impression that it was a bit of an excuse for Harris to include the sensational murders in his essay, and to acknowledge the help of (and give credit to) his friend Hebbert. Kelly was practically naked, there was merely 'only her under linen garment on her', which, more or less, only amounted to the remains of a chemise over her shoulders and under her. Indeed Bond, in his report, stated, "The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed..."

It is all very well to study, pick apart and analyse these old reports and to imbue them with all sorts of meaning, hidden or otherwise, but I think there is a real danger over over analysing here.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Stewart,

Thank you for your reply.
When read in conjunction with the Bond papers, I agree with you, that it's indication is that the heart was missing.
I admit to having read it as an individual item in conjunction with my original point, and not in conjunction with the content of the Bond papers themselves. I do agree however that over analysis on the smallest of points can be detremental in the long run.

best wishes

Phil

[caz]

Caz,

Thats my point..he DIDNT know. That diary was a set up from start to finish. There are things about all that that shows one thing... INTELLIGENCE. And I believe someone with a hell of a lot of knowledge about JTR and a hell of a lot of intelligence put that whole thing together. Its all a game Caz. Like I said, we are all pulled along until the next one.

best wishes

Phil

But Phil, you still miss my point, and rather spectacularly if I may be so bold.

Anyone with the intelligence of half an earwig, using the diary as some sort of 'set up' (to do what exactly - stop people looking elsewhere for the truth?), would NOT have let Mike Barrett within a hundred miles of it, let alone given him sole responsibility for its onward journey in life.

If you knew Mike like I knew Mike, you'd know just how much of a complete non-starter the idea is. It's almost Feldmanesque to imagine that our Mike was tied up with anything of this ilk.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Hello Caz,
Thanks for the reply.
Feldmanesk, apt choice! I believe that he was born in the East End!!


best wishes

Phil :-)

[tnb]

Thanks Stewart - very concise and answered my question perfectly.

You would agree with me then I take it that this book's Whitechapel-related references are little more 'informed' than much of the coverage in the newspapers and elsewhere 'cashing in' on the ongoing public interest and making the most of any scrap of 'knowledge'?

Glad to see someone else feels the nearby breasts and uterus would have precluded the need for any revolutionary gender-divining practices!

I was aware about the Whitechapel Murder file with its eleven listed victims, and it is an interesting point you raise that as none can be definitely attributed to the 'Ripper' then depending on your date range you can't say there are 5, 9, 11 or any finite number of victims unless you include every unsolved death in the district (and the mind boggles at that somewhat!)

My point was that the declaration of nine victims seemed unusually certain for the period, and I wondered whether it was based on any particular categorisation but given the above I suppose it represents little more than a little bit of false 'I know something you don't know...' on the authors' part.

Do you know if there were any later editions of this tome?

[caz]

Hello Caz,
Thanks for the reply.
Feldmanesk, apt choice! I believe that he was born in the East End!!


best wishes

Phil :-)

I'm not sure where you have been going with this, Phil. But if you think for one moment that Feldman knew about the diary before Mike did, or tried to set him up in some way, only to watch him unravel, I'd urge you to think again - for the sake of your bigger picture.

Didn't happen, couldn't happen.

You need to include the diary in all this like you need a hole in the head - seriously.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Caz...

MARTY FELDMAN...comic actor, born in the East End.

It was a quip.

Oh my

best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

quip take 2

Hello Phil. Eye agree! (Forgive me.)

The best.
LC

[caz]

Caz...

MARTY FELDMAN...comic actor, born in the East End.

It was a quip.

Oh my

best wishes

Phil

Oh my - how was I meant to know that??

Love,

Caz
X