Sometimes, a clear the air thing helps.. will this?

[Phil Carter]

I generally agree with Monty. I do not think that the whole thing is "all wrong" or that "it just doesn't make sense." To me, the known facts of the Ripper murders make about as much sense as ANY unsolved case. There will always be contradictions and things that don't seem to make sense, largely because we simply do not know the full story. Apparent contradictions will seem to exist because of any number of factors, including: 1. people who make mistakes, 2. faulty memory, and 3. (most important) that there may be a simple explanation that makes an apparent contradiction actually make sense.

I suspect the case is littered with other similar examples of things that seem not to make sense, because we are lacking some information.

Rob H

Hello Rob,

Thank you for your view. I would agree with everything you say that I have quoted above, with one possible major exception. That ruling out the possibility that after 121 years of collective intelligence leading us nowhere, can be summed up by the fact that it is just because we haven't got all the facts. We haven't got all the factual truths, either Rob.
As I pointed out, from the very start, Anderson, McNaghten Sims and others, have lead this investigation down all sorts of paths AWAY from the facts, whilst the papers have gone missing, stolen and frankly been purloined for other reasons.

One classic example is that Bond report, together with that MJK3 photograph. It is frankly appalling, that everyone hides from the fact that a senior, retired high ranking policeman had in his posession a piece of evidence lost for 99 years.

It raises the OBVIOUS serious questions.

1) Where did he get it from or from WHOM? From where? Well, it wasn't in the PRO case files when they were first seen by researchers/historians in the 70's. It had been MISSING for 99 years! That report had been selectively taken OUT of the Kelly file a long time ago. Because the newspapers, all of them, said the same thing. That ALL the organs were there, none were missing, and that was CERTAINLY ascertained FACT. Now that means only one thing! They got that info from the horses mouth at the time. And what happens? 99 years later a report turns up saying it was rubbish...the heart WAS missing! What does that tell you Rob?

Either Bond was so useless that he missed seeing that the heart was absent, to start with, and in agreement with or in front of SIX OTHER DOCTORS that also missed it...
or the evidence was surpressed. What on earth would anyone want to hold back the fact that the heart was missing from the body for?
Either explanation DOESN'T make sense. It's WRONG Rob. Is that 99 year missing report a fake one wonders? No...not possible. So why did Bond, Phillips and the other 5 medical men deliberately MISINFORM the entire press?

Combine that with Phillips' incredibly short work made of, and abruptly closing the inquest, without even hearing the testimony of THE MAIN WITNESS AND LAST PERSON TO HAVE SEEN KELLY ALIVE.....and that George Hutchinson suddenly disappears off the face of the Earth, having given VERY important counter evidence against Maxwell's testimony of Mary Kelly being alive... it is so suspicious that it smells Rob. Its WRONG.

So..think of this from the above... Dr.Bond could be so useless in his job, with 6 colleagues there witnessing the body, and George Bagster Phillips, who was also present and one of the medical men in Miller's Court, does such a bad job of the inquest, deliberately surpressing testimony from the LAST witness to have seen MJK alive, by closing the inquest abruptly.. it makes you wonder. Its APPALLING work.
Can you honestly believe that such reknowned men could make such mistakes? I don't.
No, the answer is simple. Evidence was supressed. And the hiding away of documents DIRECTLY contradicting the known evidence (the Bond autopsy report) proves it.

Now, from WHOM, did he that high ranking policeman in Croydon get this report is EQUALLY as important. Because that policeman didnt have it from the day he was born. It was taken out of the files by a policeman or medical man at the start of the whole business, So it has been in the UNLAWFUL posession of a person or persons unknown for nearly a century.
Some people know the name of that policeman from Croydon. I do. But it is "not the done thing" in JTR to put any name out that could cause embarrassment to the family alive today. But it does lead to the next point...

2) That report was part of an extensive file on Mary Kelly. Err..excuse me, but if HE had access to those papers...it means that the file COULD VERY WELL be in existance. Lots of papers Rob. It means that purloined papers on Mary Kelly could very well exist....
AND THAT MEANS someone is either playing a game with all of us, or there is a reason for them never to be seen.

Now... thats why I want us ALL to get the Xmas present. Someone, somewhere KNOWS about these missing files. And they are DELIBERATELY witholding information and or documents. That xmas present I mentioned should not be given us in dribs and drabs, one sheet at a time. But that it all comes out, with a wallop.
And let us get on with finding the truth. Because a little here and a little there Rob, is just keeping the whole thing trickling along..so that the money machine doesn't dry up.

Of course, ruining the game and KNOWING the facts, as Monty calls them, the truth, as I call it, is going to put a lot of noses out of joint.
Because Jack the Ripper is a multi million dollar industry. It is way, way bigger than the crimes committed. People have a livelyhood or two based on this forever being a mystery and nor being solved Rob.

And as I said. dishonesty from the very start has riddled this case. From the very top downwards. And 22 years ago, it was proven to be carrying on "in the traditions of the department"... read into that what you will.

That MJK3 photo was planted on all of us as a teaser I reckon. That photo has serious flaws and in my humble opinion is a touched up fake. A touched up piece of DISINFORMATION. It's all a game. The same, I suspect, as the marginalia that surfaced out of nowhere. It is HIGHLY suspicious. And there are leading experts in the field of JTR that agree. The same goes for the diary. So much time, money and research was needed to disprove it's authenticity.
And again, some people know who was behind it. But it kept the pot boiling.

So, we have a continual outpouring of things to keep the machine going presented to us. And like I said, I would not be surprised that in this lull of new activity, to suddenly have something new presented to us that has everything to do with leading us away from the truth of this case, and even more to do with cynical money making to keep this mystery alive.

Oh the tradjedy if all the JTR material is actually made forthcoming!

No Rob, in my humble opinion, the time has come for people to open up and be honest, for the generations of the future. Because as I have said, there are innocent young people being sucked into this case every single day, spending more time, more money and using more effort. It's a con. Period.
This "industry" is littered with dishonesty Rob. We aren't ALLOWED to solve the case. And it about time someone said, ENOUGH! And I dare to stand up and say it, on behalf of all the innocents being sucked into this mess.

There are people reading this thread who KNOW the names of those who visited the PRO in the 70's and 80's. The PRO themselves know, because permission to see the files was given in writing. In letters. And no doubt some people know what they themselves have in their posession. It's dishonest. Just like it was 121 years ago when top officials took things then too. I am just repeating out loud what some KNOW, and some whisper about.
It isn't nice to read, the realisation that thousands upon thousands of people are being hoodwinked. And you and me are two of them.

respectfully,

best wishes,

Phil

[lynn cates]

suggestions

Hello Phil. This has piqued my curiosity. Permit a couple of tame suggestions.

1. Is it possible for a photo to be slightly altered without implying anything sinister? (I am thinking here of models who have photos airbrushed in order to affirm what nature has denied.)

2. I would like to see spelled out the purported level of suppression in your suspicions. So, for example, I have heard suggestions about a cover up at the following levels:

A. Her majesty and family.
B. The institution of free masonry.
C. The Druitt family.
D. Scotland yard and related.

A-C cover up to hide a member or members; D to avert a charge of incompetence.

I take it, however, you are suggesting:

E. Those who profit from the JTR industry.

I agree that there exist those who know a good deal more about the case than they reveal--perhaps even the identity of Jack. I should be delighted if they choose to be forthcoming with their information.

The best.
LC

[curious]

The missing heart was so only the killer and investigators would know the truth

Phil:

You ask:

Either Bond was so useless that he missed seeing that the heart was absent, to start with, and in agreement with or in front of SIX OTHER DOCTORS that also missed it...
or the evidence was surpressed. What on earth would anyone want to hold back the fact that the heart was missing from the body for?


Well, that's common procedure. In investigations, facts are almost always held back from the press so that only the person responsible for the acts knows all the facts.

That way, when the police interview the right suspect, if he slips and mentions a fact not known to the public, the investigators know they have the right person.

It's done all the time. The press never has all the facts.

curious

[Phil Carter]

Phil:

You ask:

Either Bond was so useless that he missed seeing that the heart was absent, to start with, and in agreement with or in front of SIX OTHER DOCTORS that also missed it...
or the evidence was surpressed. What on earth would anyone want to hold back the fact that the heart was missing from the body for?


Well, that's common procedure. In investigations, facts are almost always held back from the press so that only the person responsible for the acts knows all the facts.

That way, when the police interview the right suspect, if he slips and mentions a fact not known to the public, the investigators know they have the right person.

It's done all the time. The press never has all the facts.

curious

Hello Curious,
Thank you for the reply,

In any other circumstances, I would totally agree. Totally.

1) The press at the time, all of them, made is an assertained FACT that no body parts were missing. That means they asked. That means, if you are correct, that 7 doctors colluded to say nothing. SEVEN! AND the police. And the coroner. And the best bit is the fact that nobody, amongst Scotland Yards finest, put the obvious together and OPEN the door by reaching in through a window! no, they have to use an axe. The body is left to rot for two hours whilst bloodhounds are sent for. Bloodhounds that dont turn up. Please! The whole thing is either bungled like no other investigation before or since, or it isnt right.

Take it that you are right...And the result of this witholding of one tiny piece of evidence? NOTHING. It didnt work did it? So why keep it witheld AFTER the case is put to bed in 1894. Why has the heart bit NEVER been mentioned, EVER, by any person involved, in any memoirs, or anything else in 99 years? The press had the facts of all the other murders. And the details of the heart missing isnt exactly somethinf small, is it?

Im sorry Curious..really... but the known facts are that evidence was supressed at an inquest, evidence was supressed by a team of medical personal, evidence was supressed by the police. And the star witness does a runner? Please... if they FIRST give out the name of the star witness, and he is interviewed in the press at the time...

2. The official inquest was hastily, and I use that word lightly, concluded without either the full details of the injuries known, NOR the testimony of the main witness who gave the best description of Jack the Ripper. This is an official inquest into a murder. A murder of the most intense brutality. A murder which the whole world is now interested in. Politically, people are baying for heads to roll.
Bond doesn't give all the details because Phillips says stops it. Witnesses aren't called.
One of the above facts on its own, then yes, perhaps your conclusion is correct...but together?..No. THAT isn't NORMAL procedure Curious.

3) It takes 99 years...99!!!! for us to see the autopsy report. And it doesn't come out of a dusty corner of the PRO. It comes via the Royal Mail to the police at Scotland Yard, from the family of a deceased High Ranking Policeman who used it for lectures on criminality? I know police hold things back Curious... but 99 years? Excuse me for seeming flippant, but that report had not seen the light of day since 1888, and even then it wasn't what everyone thought.

THAT isn't normal either.

I just don't buy it.

If the collective brains of the police could work out the witholding evidence bit, to fool the Ripper somehow... then they would know how to reach in through a window and open a door.

respectfully,

best wishes

Phil

[IchabodCrane]

2)The inquest is closed very quickly, without the chief and main witness being called, Hutchinson.

That's probably because Hutchinson only came forward after the inquest was closed, Phil.
Best wishes,
IchabodCrane

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. This has piqued my curiosity. Permit a couple of tame suggestions.

1. Is it possible for a photo to be slightly altered without implying anything sinister? (I am thinking here of models who have photos airbrushed in order to affirm what nature has denied.)

2. I would like to see spelled out the purported level of suppression in your suspicions. So, for example, I have heard suggestions about a cover up at the following levels:

A. Her majesty and family.
B. The institution of free masonry.
C. The Druitt family.
D. Scotland yard and related.

A-C cover up to hide a member or members; D to avert a charge of incompetence.

I take it, however, you are suggesting:

E. Those who profit from the JTR industry.

I agree that there exist those who know a good deal more about the case than they reveal--perhaps even the identity of Jack. I should be delighted if they choose to be forthcoming with their information.

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thank you for your reply and I shall endeavour to answer your excellent points.

Yes, photo's DO get touched up in the modelling trade. But that photo isn't JUST touched up. It's a plant. And I don't mean one with leaves on in a pot on Granny's windowledge either. It smacks of the Diary. And if I am correct, the marginalia as well. And there are two things that link the lot together.. Intelligence and very detailed knowledge of the JTR case

There are things in that photo that aren't natural. It MAY have been taken with an old camera, but no, its a fake. And that reminds me of the Diary. Its a game. And it is designed to go out over investigators, researchers and ultimately, the general public. A person, or a small group of people, are playing, or has been playing a game. With all of us.
After the Gorman tale, it was very clear that the JTR thing was possible to be exploited. Look how much time, money and effort has been needed to de- bunk Gorman's tale. He holds up his hands and says "Guilty" and then retracts it again. Then, because of retraction, the players change, another book or two come out, and the game is kept going.

The photo is sent in by a high ranking policeman's family after his death.. Together with the Crippen papers, and Dr.Bond's report. Now, one of two possibilities here. Either we have a policeman of repute who is in posession of official papers of the case and uses them for lecture purposes after his retirement, and/OR, that person or persons after his death, have done this skillfull con trick on purpose. It's a long term con trick. Thats why I said, in the lull currently here, it wouldn't surprise me if another thing gets pulled out, to lead us all down the garden path again.

The whole JTR disinformation thing was, from almost the very start, done with a purpose. Sims was the original the media outlet. Various policemen trundle out theories that are almost impossible to prove or disprove. For what reason? To lead us all away from what was really going on. Possibly political, possibly something else. Time trundles on, and every now and then something comes about that is either a fairytale, a story or a good yarn. And someone somewhere is well aware of it today, and for the above reasons has carried it on.

But the money machine of JTR cannot stop Lynn. And that little addition there is an incentive. MONEY. JTR, the industry, must not die, and we must not be allowed to solve the case. Yes, I'm being cynical. But there ARE people out there who know very well what I am saying. I say out loud what people have known about or whispered about for ages. Every now and then we are fed a little, tantalising feed from the drip bottle. Just to keep us going. And we are all being fooled. Each and every one of us.

What really gets me, is that there ARE genuine dedicated people out there trying like crazy to get somewhere with all this. But when I see the younger generation being pulled in.. innocents all. Its wrong. Its dishonest and it is cynical.

It's about time someone stood up and said "guilty".. and about time the facts that people have knocking around are revealed to all, the stuff purloined is returned and the slate wiped clean.

And If I have to be the outlet to voice this. So be it. I don't care. I just want some TRUTH and HONESTY. And the games to stop.

And a Xmas present for us all. 'Tis the season of GOOD WILL.


with best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

One of the underlying themes in your ideas Phil is that there is some connection that we are not privy to that exists between some of the crimes connected with the Jack the Ripper series and the Irish self rule activities that were ongoing in the area concerned......and without having any answer as to what form that link might take, I would think that is a reasonable premise to work with.

The main problem I have had with conventional wisdom is that it incorporates the political and social conditions ONLY as a backdrop to the crimes, instead of perhaps as a catalyst for some of them, and I believe as well that its a very real possibility that the murder of some Unfortunates crossed paths with matters of National Security.

As one senior officer remarked about the crimes and the responses to them across the Metro, they were thought to be a threat to a very small and geographically contained minority, "and no amount of silly hysterics"' should alter that fact.

Jack the Ripper's crimes were not "National Security" issues. But they very likely had some of those happening in and around Whitechapel at the same time as the killings, in my opinion.

Considering the Fenians were foiled trying to blow up Parliament for the Queens Jubilee,....folied by some Senior Ripper figures.... and then again that Fall for planning to kill Lord Balfour, ...perhaps again, with the help from some Senior Ripper investigators, and since we have the upcoming Parnell Hearings set for that Winter, there seems to be ample fuel for speculation that Fenians and Jack seem to have been sharing the stage.....maybe also the limelight, and/or some guilt.

And we would never know about it, because it would be a Special Branch matter, and filed away from public scrutiny for good.

Best regards Phil

[Debra A]

Take it that you are right...And the result of this witholding of one tiny piece of evidence? NOTHING. It didnt work did it? So why keep it witheld AFTER the case is put to bed in 1894. Why has the heart bit NEVER been mentioned, EVER, by any person involved, in any memoirs, or anything else in 99 years? The press had the facts of all the other murders. And the details of the heart missing isnt exactly somethinf small, is it?

Hi Phil,
I don't think it's correct to say that the heart bit had never been mentioned in 99 years. Reference was made to the missing heart in a medical jurisprudence textbook that has been discussed on the boards before.
A System of Legal Medicine, there are gifferent editions of this volume in print so i don't know the exact date when the information first appeared in it, but it is definitely in the 1900 edition I have seen. The details were supplied by Dr Hebbert, from Dr. Bond's notes.

[Phil Carter]

That's probably because Hutchinson only came forward after the inquest was closed, Phil.
Best wishes,
IchabodCrane

Hello Ichabod,
Thank you for your reply,

Hutchinson walked into Commercial St Police Station JUST A SHORT TIME AFTER the Inquest was finished, at about 6pm.

How very odd that Phillips... and there are MANY MANY people who have remarked this...that he closed the Inquest prematurely.

Coincidence? It gets to the point where coincidence just doesn't fit anymore. It gets ridiculous.

Like I said. From start to finish the whole thing is wrong. Bit by bit. Every excuse and reason under the sun has been proposed for everything that doesn't rhyme. Umm, think about it.. SO MANY mistakes/Reasons/Excuses all in the course of the same investigation of the same series of murders.

Singular, as Conan Doyle wrote.

Hello Debs,
Thanks for your reply,
1900? In an obscure piece of writing that hardly anyone knew about? Because for 87 odd years after that, it was generally UNKNOWN.To quote your good self...

" in a medical jurisprudence textbook that has been discussed on the boards before.
A System of Legal Medicine, there are different editions of this volume in print so i don't know the exact date when the information first appeared in it, but it is definitely in the 1900 edition I have seen. The details were supplied by Dr Hebbert, from Dr. Bond's notes."

Umm... Debs, who found this? And when?...was it found SINCE the 1987 report turned up, or before? Because apart from these boards, I have never seen it referred to.

Respectfully, as always,

Phil

[Phil Carter]

One of the underlying themes in your ideas Phil is that there is some connection that we are not privy to that exists between some of the crimes connected with the Jack the Ripper series and the Irish self rule activities that were ongoing in the area concerned......and without having any answer as to what form that link might take, I would think that is a reasonable premise to work with.

The main problem I have had with conventional wisdom is that it incorporates the political and social conditions ONLY as a backdrop to the crimes, instead of perhaps as a catalyst for some of them, and I believe as well that its a very real possibility that the murder of some Unfortunates crossed paths with matters of National Security.

As one senior officer remarked about the crimes and the responses to them across the Metro, they were thought to be a threat to a very small and geographically contained minority, "and no amount of silly hysterics"' should alter that fact.

Jack the Ripper's crimes were not "National Security" issues. But they very likely had some of those happening in and around Whitechapel at the same time as the killings, in my opinion.

Considering the Fenians were foiled trying to blow up Parliament for the Queens Jubilee,....folied by some Senior Ripper figures.... and then again that Fall for planning to kill Lord Balfour, ...perhaps again, with the help from some Senior Ripper investigators, and since we have the upcoming Parnell Hearings set for that Winter, there seems to be ample fuel for speculation that Fenians and Jack seem to have been sharing the stage.....maybe also the limelight, and/or some guilt.

And we would never know about it, because it would be a Special Branch matter, and filed away from public scrutiny for good.

Best regards Phil

Hello Mike,

Yes, Thanks Mike, I agree. And the last line is the most important of all.

"...And we would never know about it, because it would be a Special Branch matter, and filed away from public scrutiny for good."

What better place to hide the facts. Period. And then use the excuse that names of families would be affected. 121 years after the murders. That, Mike, is a cop out. 4 or 5 generations down the line and people would still be affected. I have only one thing to say to that. Wishwash and bah! humbug!
(well, the season of goodwill has a Mr.Nasty too hasn't it)

best wishes as always

Phil

[robhouse]

Well, obviously if there are some papers that someone has related to the case, then I agree, they should be seen. But I do not really agree with your general premise, which seems to be that there has been some sort of high level cover up, which involves Hutchinson, Mary Kelly, and/or high government officials. Moreover, I don't think that there is any sort of conspiracy to keep information from the public in service of a "multi-million dollar" Ripper industry. I think everyone involved would be more than happy if the case was closed. If there are in fact people who have previously unseen (by the public) files on the case, then I imagine they are keeping them secret for the same reasons the Police at the time were reluctant to discuss the case. And, yes, I am very interested in the Special Branch files on the Ripper, but we will probably never see those.

I don't see anything particularly suspicious in the newspapers not getting the info on Mary Kelly's heart. I would assume that the police kept that info from the press either because they wanted to withhold information that only the killer would know, or more likely, simply because that detail was considered too shocking to print, and because the police might have thought it was too sensational, and might further increase the public's panic over the crimes. I mean really, what would be the point of publicizing that particular fact?

Again, I just don't agree with your basic premise that there is too much about the case that is just "wrong". And I also dont think that there was some sort of misinformation conspiracy organized by Anderson, Swanson, and Macnaghten. Yes, they may have kept information from the public, but I don't really think there was any sort of intention spreading of misinformation, via Sims, etc.

Rob H

[lynn cates]

understanding

Hello Phil. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some (perhaps future) author is planting material as a prelude for an eventual book? Or something of that sort? Well, that is quite believable.

Good luck in getting the truth!

The best.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,
Thanks for your reply,
1900? In an obscure piece of writing that hardly anyone knew about? Because for 87 odd years after that, it was generally UNKNOWN.To quote your good self...

" in a medical jurisprudence textbook that has been discussed on the boards before.
A System of Legal Medicine, there are different editions of this volume in print so i don't know the exact date when the information first appeared in it, but it is definitely in the 1900 edition I have seen. The details were supplied by Dr Hebbert, from Dr. Bond's notes."

Umm... Debs, who found this? And when?...was it found SINCE the 1987 report turned up, or before? Because apart from these boards, I have never seen it referred to.

Respectfully, as always,

Phil

Phil, the point is that the information was not withheld by Bond or Hebbert like you say, but freely given for publication in a book, hardly a cover up to keep the information secret then? It makes no difference how obscure or popular that book would have been at the time, the details of MJK's heart being taken were included. It was discovered after 1987 yes, but it's been available for anyone to discover it since at least 1900.

Like others have already said, and I agree, it's understandable that the information was kept from the press at the time, and it wasn't the only case either, certain details of Elizabeth Jackson's mutilations in 1889 were also kept from the press at the time of her murder.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some (perhaps future) author is planting material as a prelude for an eventual book? Or something of that sort? Well, that is quite believable.

Good luck in getting the truth!

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thanks for the reply...
Sadly, not just that. It is way beyond that level now. The whole machine is divided into parts. The mass media to attract the greatest audience(film), The internet, books, et al.
Whenever there is GENUINE researching, with GENUINE researchers and historians, it will be countered by planters of false "clues" to deliberately mislead and or make money.
Another little snippet will turn up soon, because the whole thing needs to keep rolling. And to keep it rolling, the "evidence" has to be more and more convincing. You see, there is money to be made in JTR. Millions. And a few people have been and are scrupulous enough to use the gullability that naturally exists. As long as the mystery remains exactly that, it will carry on and on. Because there are DISHONEST people around.

And more and more people are sucked into it within each generation that is attracted to the mystery.

And that I find terrible. I have been at this for a long, long time. And I have sat and watched it from the sidelines.
I thought now, right now, is the time, perhaps, to get some of the dishonest ones to come clean. I reckon 121 years of being led a merry dance from left right and centre should stop.

Like I said...again.

It would be a refreshing feeling that someone somewhere said stop too.
Because frankly, some of this is very unpalatable. And the innocent ones get dragged in.

Have you noticed something Lynn? Amongst other things...No one mentions the bit about the KNOWN people who visited the PRO with permission by letter in the purloining years? No one mentions that high ranking policeman from Croydon and his actions in all this? Why?
Because no one dares own up. And there are people around who KNOW who, why and when. And stay silent. There is an old saying.
Silence is the cruellest of lies.
Because it goes out over the innocent ones.

And me? I am a nobody Lynn, so I don't care if I get pilloried for this. But Ive got the guts to say it loud, while others just whisper.

Wouldn't it be lovely with a slate wiped clean of all the rubbish?

Hmm.. Merry Xmas I say.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

I think everyone involved would be more than happy if the case was closed....... If there are in fact people who have previously unseen (by the public) files on the case, then I imagine they are keeping them secret for the same reasons the Police at the time were reluctant to discuss the case. And, yes, I am very interested in the Special Branch files on the Ripper, but we will probably never see those.


Rob H

Hello Rob, thank you again for your reply,

Three of your points above that I feel I must reply to.

1) That everyone would be happy if the case was closed... oh no... not by a long chalk. The GENUINE ones amongst us would. Yes.

2) What reason Rob, why keep the files unseen? What possible reason is enough to warrant secrecy after 121 years?

3) Special Branch Files... we will never see them? Really? Perhaps some already have..........

An example was this comment, in reply a question about the Special Branch Files held at Kew, in a previous thread I had called "In the name of honesty" .. posting Nr 147, by Mr. Trevor Marriot replying to Chris, who had quoted me...--

"Just wanted to say anyone thinking of going to Kew save yourself a journey and unnecessary expense there is nothing there of interest "

Oh really?

Now, how would anybody know that?

best wishes

Phil