John Gill

[silverstealth]

- What, are you crazy???
Your book will sell like hotcakes here; I'm really looking forward to it.

The Marie Campbell book is available for "Preview" on Google Books; here is a
She does mentions the Golden Dawn at the very end of the Gill section, but more in a "could it be possibile?" kind of way. To be honest, I didn't paid too much attention to that part, as I'm burned out on wading through 'Black Magic' theories.
I just want FACTS.

A man after my own heart, I agree black and white facts is what I believe in too.

How long before someone comes up with the theory that the ripper was really an alien from Mars who just dropped into London for a series of city breaks and happened to hook up with a colony of human flesh eating chronically ill escaped lunatics living in the Sewers who had quite cleverly developed the ability to teleport themselves around Whitechapel unseen.. lol

[Rob Clack]

> Rob, thanks for the terrific illustrations!
(But you'll get no more 'genie' compliments from me; I learned my lesson )

Great thread, everyone! Regards, Archaic

That's okay. I doubt if you could rub me up the wrong way

Rob

[Archaic]

Link to 'Strange World of the Brontes'

As for the book, I intend to check and double check facts

- What, are you crazy???
Your book will sell like hotcakes here; I'm really looking forward to it.

The Marie Campbell book is available for "Preview" on Google Books; here is a link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g3GLSjxYUBQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Strange+world+brontes&ei=tAw4SqSuC4nWlQTytJz3BA

She does mentions the Golden Dawn at the very end of the Gill section, but more in a "could it be possibile?" kind of way. To be honest, I didn't paid too much attention to that part, as I'm burned out on wading through 'Black Magic' theories.
I just want FACTS.

> Rob, thanks for the terrific illustrations!
(But you'll get no more 'genie' compliments from me; I learned my lesson )

Great thread, everyone! Regards, Archaic

[silverstealth]

Just e-mailed the images to you. They are quite a large file and took ages to send, so if any problems with them p.m. me and I'll try and send them again.

Rob

All arrived safely rob, If I can ever do you a favour mate just ask.

Also I got a back copy of the Master Detective July 1993 ordered.

[Rob Clack]

Wonderful Rob many thanks for posting these, do you possibly have high res scans you could email to me at mark.mdavis@gmail.com

Just e-mailed the images to you. They are quite a large file and took ages to send, so if any problems with them p.m. me and I'll try and send them again.

Rob

[Nurse Sarah]

Hi Silverstealth

Nah, pretty unlikely, the Barretts who are my relations come from the Midlands, not far from Wolverhampton (Eddowes Country!)

[silverstealth]

A very interesting case. I first read about it in Master Detective back in 1993. So I do hope you publish your findings silverstealth.
The Illustrated Police News published a few drawings on John Gills murder.

Rob

Wonderful Rob many thanks for posting these, do you possibly have high res scans you could email to me at mark.mdavis@gmail.com

[Rob Clack]

A very interesting case. I first read about it in Master Detective back in 1993. So I do hope you publish your findings silverstealth.
The Illustrated Police News published a few drawings on John Gills murder.

5 January 1889




12 January 1889


and

19 January 1889


Rob

[silverstealth]

I am a Barrett myself but have no known ancestors in Bradford that I know of!

William Barrett was from the Keighley/Skipton district so you just never know..

[Nurse Sarah]

I have a copy of the Strange World of the Brontes by Marie Campbell as Im a huge fan of the Bronte family and their writings.

Thats the main prob with the book, I think a lot of it is all codswollop as there are no footnotes so no proof of where her stories came from...its not well written either with many mistakes.

I am a Barrett myself but have no known ancestors in Bradford that I know of!

[silverstealth]

Hi, Cap'n & Silverstealth.
I went through my notes, and my info on Phillips came from the book 'The Strange World of the Brontes,' in which there is a brief discussion of the Gill case. The passage about Phillips discusses his examination of the body, measurement of wounds, etc., then states, QUOTE: "His conclusion was that the murder was identical." (meaning to Whitechapel murders) I do not have a copy of the book, so I don't know what source the author used.

The other notes I have on the Gill case state that Johnnie's family used his 5-Pound Life insurance policy to pay for his funeral (hence the impressive headstone). Neighbors donated flowers. John was buried in Windhill Wesleyan Cemetary; it was supposed to be a private burial because his family was in such an emotionally fragile state, but hundreds of people turned out for it, requiring 10 policemen to maintain order. Shortly afterward, an anonymous "friend" donated 2 Pounds to help the grieving parents with expenses- they seem to have spent all they had on the funeral.

Interestingly, the citizens of Bradford fully supported Barret's innocence throughout, blamed the police for accusing him, & a band even played "Hail the Conquering Hero" when he was released. So maybe he was strangely calm because he knew he was innocent?

Silverstealth, I enjoyed your website; I didn't realize Bradford was that 'urban' until I saw your pics. The old newsreel footage of Bradford at the turn of the century is wonderful- like going back in time! The film has a very ghostly quality, too, which makes it even cooler.

Can you please tell me what newspaper your illustration came from? (I'm really interested in old news illustrations.)
So glad you came along! When can I buy your book??? Thanks, Archaic

Ah yes Marie Cambell and the Order of the Golden Dawn. I believe I can pin point the majority of her Gill research material to 2 principle sources. As I remember here intimation is that the murder was sacrifical or at least gave an arguement for that theory. Everything I have seen written about the Bradford Murder has a common theme, inconsistancies..

Patrica Cornwell for example has the timing of John leaving home wrong by 40 minutes, she is incorrect in that he was last seen playing with other children at 830 am on the 27th of December and this is just the first paragraph.

Most people presume Joseph Bucke the butchers apprentice who found the remains was called Buckle as did P Cornwell.

The mutilation of John Gill was similar in part to other mutilations of official ripper victims but not identical.

The funeral was marked by thousands lining the Manningham lane as the procession proceeded to Windhill after a short ceremony at the boys house. After the service at Windhill the plan was for a quiet private burial however such were the crowds in the cemetery even the funeral party struggled to gain entry until the police had appealed for dignity.

The calmness with which Barrett carried himself was strange to say the least, even an innocent man under the shadow of the noose would naturally and understandably be concerned for his welfare, Justice in those days could pivot upon ones ability to pay for it. Although a large contingency of Bradfordians believed Barrett to be innocent there was equally many that believed the poilce had the right man.

The old news reel is an amazing find at 25 seconds you are looking at the top of Thorncliffe Road Where John lived.

The Illustration came from the weekly telegraph Jan 5th 1889.

As for the book, I intend to check and double check facts and weave a compelling story in to a trully fascinating read and all this will take time but I am a fast worker when I am passionate about a subject.

[Brenda]

It is this kind of thing that keeps me coming back to Casebook, not the endless arguments as to who the Ripper was. Thanks to Cap'n Jack for bringing this subject up, and thanks to Silverstealth for sharing some of his/her quality research. I had only heard of this case in passing.

[Archaic]

re: Footnotes

I checked my notes again on the Bronte book, and unfortunately the author did not use any footnotes.

There's a long bibliography at the end, but that's all.
Makes you wanna bang your head against the wall, doesn't it?

Regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

My Phillips Info

Hi, Cap'n & Silverstealth.
I went through my notes, and my info on Phillips came from the book 'The Strange World of the Brontes,' in which there is a brief discussion of the Gill case. The passage about Phillips discusses his examination of the body, measurement of wounds, etc., then states, QUOTE: "His conclusion was that the murder was identical." (meaning to Whitechapel murders) I do not have a copy of the book, so I don't know what source the author used.

The other notes I have on the Gill case state that Johnnie's family used his 5-Pound Life insurance policy to pay for his funeral (hence the impressive headstone). Neighbors donated flowers. John was buried in Windhill Wesleyan Cemetary; it was supposed to be a private burial because his family was in such an emotionally fragile state, but hundreds of people turned out for it, requiring 10 policemen to maintain order. Shortly afterward, an anonymous "friend" donated 2 Pounds to help the grieving parents with expenses- they seem to have spent all they had on the funeral.

Interestingly, the citizens of Bradford fully supported Barret's innocence throughout, blamed the police for accusing him, & a band even played "Hail the Conquering Hero" when he was released. So maybe he was strangely calm because he knew he was innocent?

Silverstealth, I enjoyed your website; I didn't realize Bradford was that 'urban' until I saw your pics. The old newsreel footage of Bradford at the turn of the century is wonderful- like going back in time! The film has a very ghostly quality, too, which makes it even cooler.

Can you please tell me what newspaper your illustration came from? (I'm really interested in old news illustrations.)
So glad you came along! When can I buy your book??? Thanks, Archaic

[silverstealth]

Mr. Phillips afterwards visited the stable at Belle Vue, where the murder is supposed to have been committed. Mr. Phillips, it is stated, expressed his conviction that the Bradford murder had no connexion whatever with the series of fiendish crimes which have recently occurred on the East end of London, and that there was apparently reasonable ground for the theory the Bradford police authorities entertain in reference to the motive for the crime. There is nothing, it is stated, to support the allegation as to lunacy having existed in the family of Barrett.

Barretts stable can be seen straight through the swing frame, it remains to this day pretty much as it did in 1888 although the interior recently underwent modernisation.

In relation to the lunacy in Barretts family this was indeed proved to be incorrect probably much to Forbes Winslows dismay, There were many Barretts or Barritts in the Skipton district at the time, Barretts own tombstone displays his surname as Barritt

The rumour of madness circulated was in reference to 2 deaths at the Skipton workhouse of unrelated people with the Barrett surname.