John Gill

[Tom_Wescott]

There was nothing in it really.....unlike his Lusk connection, however thats for a different thread on a different day.

Ya damn tease. Let's hope it's one day soon, because I'm very intrigued. Incidentally, I tossed 'Scott Medine' into google and it seems he's on facebook and myspace if anyone wants to contact him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Ya damn tease. Let's hope it's one day soon, because I'm very intrigued. Incidentally, I tossed 'Scott Medine' into google and it seems he's on facebook and myspace if anyone wants to contact him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So is Jesus Christ and 51 Tom Wescotts. Im sure Scotts around somewhere.

As for Lusk, I pmd it to you some years back Tom. Was just pure speculation and nothing of substance.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty, I guess I don't remember. Not too surprising if, as you said, it wasn't of substance. How many Scott Medine's can their be? And most of those Tom Wescott's are actually me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh come on girls, settle down, I banged on about the Gill case, the letters and the Bradford coffin about five years ago, so give us a break.

[Monty]

Oh come on girls, settle down, I banged on about the Gill case, the letters and the Bradford coffin about five years ago, so give us a break.

Whats that to do with the price of ham per portion AP? Reel the ego in.

Besides, Scotts mails to me are dated 7 years ago but I admire your attempt at catch up.

Monty

[silverstealth]

I'd certainly be interested in the opinion of posters here as to the motive behind the murder and mutilation of John Gill. especially the mutilation.

Ok here is a map of the crime scene and associated areas.



1 = Walmer Villas, where John Gill was last seen alive sliding down the pavement on that frosty morning of the 27th of December.

2 = 41 Thorncliffe Road, the home of John Gill

3 = Back Mellor St where John remains were found on the 29th December

4 = Barrett home he shared with his wife and infant son, Bateman st

5 = 200 Manningham Lane, Wolfendons Dairy where Barrett was employed.

6 = Back Belle Vue, Barretts stable thought to be the crime scene where John was mutilated.

The walk from Walmer Villas to Johns home is 5 minutes at a leisurely pace to give an idea of distances.

You will see from the plan that Johns remains were found closer to home than from where he was last seen alive. Barretts Stable is also further away from where the remains were found and in the wrong direction and would have required Barrett crossing Manningham lane at a time when millworkers and alike were making their way to work, Saturday mornings were classed as part of the official working week.

If you have watched the footage of Manningham lane that I have posted in this thread you will see Manningham lane was a very busy thoroughfare, more so than it is even today. For Barrett to risk bringing the boys remains across that road into the very heart of Johns neighbourhood whilst his family and friends were searching with fear in their heart for his fate would have been sheer madness.

If we are to believe Barretts testimony which is backed up by a suprise witness of good standing that John said to him "I'm going home for breakfast Bill" at 8 30 am outside 9 walmer villas to which Barrett replied "alright" (a man of few word our mr Barrett) then somewhere between the 5 minute walk from Walmer Villas to Thorncliffe road somebody took him in never to be seen alive again.

Barrett and Gill were well aquainted with each other, Gill was a frequent companion on the milk float and had never before left for breakfast he had always seen the round out, back to the dairy. Barrett had only one drop off left to do when John left, no 13 Walmer Villas just 2 doors up and would have more than likely overtaken John on the way back to the dairy yet he did not see him again.

This tell me John had arranged to meet somebody around that time and had literally ran back thus adding weight to Barretts evidence that he had not overtaken him.

Barretts stable that Dr Phillips inspected and was believed to be the scene of the mutilation and murder was opposite an open quarry, if Barrett had committed the foul deed he would have found the quarry better suited to hiding the remains.

Lets now look at the comparisons between the Ripper murders and that of John gill.

Points In Common...

The same time frame, 1888 but also the latter part of the month as the victims below.

Mary Ann (Polly) Nichols, murdered Friday, August 31, 1888.
Elizabeth Stride, murdered Sunday, September 30, 1888.
Catharine Eddowes, also murdered that same date.

Johns body was horribly mutilated on a par or more so than Mary Jane Kelly.

Johns ears were removed, Catharine Eddowes had one of her ears cut off, Mary Jane Kelly had her ears partly removed, correct me if I am wrong

The author of this crime has evaded capture and his identity still remains a mystery.

Possible ritual motivation.


Discrepancies..

John was a male child of some 7 years and 11 months old as we all know the official ripper victims were all women prostitutes.

Obviouslly John was killed in Bradford, The West Riding and not London.

John legs were removed as part of the mutilations inflicted, None of the Ripper victims mutilations went this far. I am convinced this was done for ease of transportation.

John was missing for 2 days, more than likely he was kept in a building very close to his house given the location where his remains were discovered. None of the Ripper victims were kept for such a long period of time.

Johns body was completely drained of blood and his chest cavity was noted to be so clean it was presumed it had been washed out.

Weighing up the evidence.

Throughout the Ripper killing spree the Bradford press continually updated the readers with the latest news, one article in particular printed the "just for jolly" letter which specifically talks about "clipping the ears off"

The whole country was ripper obsessed the crimes discussed by virtually babes in arms to those in their twilight years.

John was a much loved and cherished child who was missed almost immediately, not a street urchin by any means. His father a well known cab driver made his disappearance common knowledge amongst the cab drivers. Johns mother Mary and her friend trawled the locality from the dinnertime of the day he was last seen making enquiries with Barrett and other locals as to her son's whereabouts. The parents even put in the local paper a "lost " advert appealing for their son. On the friday night Mary made it common knowledge that the detectives would be arriving in the morning (the 29th) and Barrett would have to tell them something.

The morning of the 29th at around 7am Joseph Bucke a butchers apprentice discovers the remains close to a manure pit about 60 yards from the victims home. There are shouts and cries of "the ripper done it" "the ripper is in Bradford" etc

Chief Constable James Withers fears a riot as well as anticipated wide spread fear so he arrests Barrett the last man to see the child and places him in the town hall while the investigation proceeds, A large formidable knife is retrieved from Barretts home that fits bill. Witness statements are gathered with emphasis on nailing Barrett.

The fact that Mary Gill made the imminent arrival of the detectives known to all including the murderer probably explains the remains being found the following morning. It is likely that the murderer intended to bury the boy in the manure pit to further conceal the crime but either panicked or heard one of the Bakers close by and fled the scene. Joseph Bucke the 19 year old who made the grim discovery lived opposite the stable where the remains were found and was a butchers apprentice by trade, he maintained he had never met either the victim or Barrett and was never brought in for questioning.

Lets deal with the mutilations, some would say the mutilations were of a ritualistic nature, if this was the case why would the perpatrator risk leaving the remains so close to the search parties unless they lived very close by and were panicked by the thought of the visiting detectives.

Another explanation would be a sexual motive, the boy having being lured by a local known to him hence him leaving the milk cart early. He may have been promised money for a few jobs, Johns father said at the time he was trying to get a few pennies to put in the penny bank. Having lured john as arranged he then abused John followed by murder to keep him quiet and mutilation in a similar fashion to the reported Ripper victims in order to disguise the true crime.

Either way this young boy was without doubt kept dead or alive for 48 hours within spitting distance of his maternal home...

These are just a few of my observations of a highly complex case however I hope there is enough here for people to comment on with their own theories..

[Cap'n Jack]

An excellent, and eloquent, summary of events, Silver.
There are a number of key points that sort of make me stray somewhat from the conception of a 'ritual', or a 'copy cat' crime... but both seem viable considering the circumstances.
My vague inclination at present - but I've got a whole load of more reading to do yet - is to see the hand of a genuine lunatic at work here, a young and sexually confused 'boy' atinkering with the inner workings of a universe he doesn't understand.
And this is where I see a remarkable resemblence to some of the Whitechapel Murders.

[Monty]

Silver,

Johns ears were removed, Catharine Eddowes had one of her ears cut off, Mary Jane Kelly had her ears partly removed, correct me if I am wrong

Eddowes ear was not cut off. It was still attached at the crime scene. It fell off at a later stage. This indicates to me that the ear was not cut off as a deliberate act.

Cheers
Monty

[Cap'n Jack]

She must have cut herself shaving then I assume?

[Monty]

Or it was nicked accidently, possibly during the throat cut which is fairly common.

Monty

[Cap'n Jack]

I would suggest to you, Monty, that after Ms Eddowes throat was cut she could no longer have 'accidents'.
So the cut ear was part of a deliberate act of violence after all.

Silver, I don't know whether you have already thought of what I'm thinking about right now in regard to Eddowes ear?

[Ally]

Let's not let this so far interesting thread get bogged down in semantics. I am sure we all know that Monty meant that the ear slice was an unintentional byproduct of the throat slice and not a specific target of the killer.

[Nurse Sarah]

Apart from the short piece in Strange World of the Brontes, can anyone tell me if there are any books written on this case as I cant find much about it on the internet? Thanks


http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=bradford&countryCode=GB#map=53.80629,-1.76077|17|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:53.80365 :-1.76077:17|valley%20parade|Valley%20Parade,%20Quee nsbury,%20Bradford,%20West%20Yorkshire,%20England, %20BD8%207

I see many of the street names are still the same...

[Cap'n Jack]

Quite right, Ally, I couldn't agree more.
However the wound that Monty implies led to the accidental slicing of the ear in question was located three inches below said ear.
This would appear to disallow accidental slicing, but rather point to a deliberate act.

[Rob Clack]

Apart from the short piece in Strange World of the Brontes, can anyone tell me if there are any books written on this case as I cant find much about it on the internet? Thanks


http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=bradford&countryCode=GB#map=53.80629,-1.76077|17|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:53.80365 :-1.76077:17|valley%20parade|Valley%20Parade,%20Quee nsbury,%20Bradford,%20West%20Yorkshire,%20England, %20BD8%207

I see many of the street names are still the same...

As I mentioned earlier Sarah there is a short chapter in Master Detective July 1993. There is a book 'Foul Deeds and Suspicious Deaths in and around Bradford' which might have a chapter on it.

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=712

Rob