John Gill

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm looking at coincidence, Ally, rather than a related injury... and trust me the ear is of some import.
Be careful with the 'oblique', for Dr Brown also described the massive wound to Eddowes' torso, the one that opened up her innards, as being 'oblique'.

[Ally]

I may be mistaken but "oblique" means at an angle, neither horizontal nor vertical. So the cut on the abdomen as well as the ear could both be oblique. When dealing with an angled cut to the ear, however, it would be clear that only part could be cut off.

[silverstealth]

Tom W writes:

"Could the body have been transported to the stable from elsewhere? Cleaning it would make sense if the killer planned to transport the body. Can't very well have blood leaking everywhere."

I would have thought it proven that the body MUST have been transported, Tom, since the blood was not to be found at the manure pit. But it is obviously an unproven issue whether the boy was kept alive for some time inbetween his disappearance and the recovery of his remains. This, of course, would have had bearing on the question of leaking blood.
We know that Gill was not in place at the pit sometime earlier, as a policeman testified to having searched the very premises. Therefore, if he had been killed directly after his abduction, there would have been no practical need for the killer to fear for any leaking blood - it would have dried up. The only scenario where leakng blood would apply is a scenario where the boy is killed close in time to the tranport to the manure pit.
Capī n Jack offers an interesting addition with the Halal slaughter method, I think!

The best,
Fisherman

At 4.25 am on the day that the remains were discovered the local bobby on his rounds examined the stable door and even went to the point of trying the door. This was backed up by the Bakers working at the bakery in the next opening. So there was a window of Opportunity of around 3 hours for disposal, The old woman who knocked people up for work was on her rounds from 5 30 am at the latest, people on their way to work etc were up and about in the area at the same time. You could then narrow it even further especially if you had local knowledge to 4 30 am to around 5 am to be give yourself the best chance of completing the task, giving just 30 minutes.

The author of the crime appears to have taken a lot of trouble to package the body parts and clothes into one easily transportable bundle using John's own clothes to wrap it all into a neat package.

Imagine the scene in some victorian basement, You know the detectives are coming, you don't know for sure that Barrett will be blamed and fear and paranoia take over your thinking. So you package every item that relates to the boy together using the braces to secure it for transportation. Before leaving you hover your lamp in every corner looking for clues that the police may find to identify you as the killer.. Once satisfied you wait for the bobby to finish his round for the night and silently slip into the lane you identified earlier as the safest place to deposit the remains. Once there your senses are heightened to an all time level, you hear random noises, is that someone coming? has anyone seen me? I can hear voices!, time to make a quick exit as self preservation is all that counts at that very moment and the previous plan to embedd the remains in the manure pile comes secondary..

Whoever committed this crime did not anticipate the police taking such an active interest in the boys dissapearance, and in truth it was only at the boys parents insistence that they were due to arrive on the saturday. With that knowledge it is quite possible the murderer had to act quickly hence the dumping of the remains in such a haphazard fashion.

[Cap'n Jack]

That 'part', Ally, serves my obscure purpose and weird intent.

[Cap'n Jack]

Silver, can you do me a small favour... check the spelling of Joseph Bucke?

[Fisherman]

It is a very convincing picture you paint, Silverstealth, and I can quite understand that the case has had you absorbed.
For example, we cannot conclude that Gillīs body was meant for the manure pit - but you make your case in a manner that is quite overwhelming.

Can I ask you, what kind of perpetrator do you think we are looking at? Capīn Jack suggests a man very much along the lines of how he pictures a possible Jack the Ripper - a, shall we say, confused young man. But whatīs your own ideas? A madman, a copycat, a sexual deviant, a cool, calculating fiend, two people in collaboration...?

The best,
Fisherman

[silverstealth]

Silver, can you do me a small favour... check the spelling of Joseph Bucke?

Here you go Jack from the 1901 census..

Name Joseph Bucke
Relation to Head of Family Head
Age Last Birthday 31
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Butcher Beef
Employment Status
Condition as to Marriage, Married
Ward of Municipal Borough or Urban District Bradford

[silverstealth]

It is a very convincing picture you paint, Silverstealth, and I can quite understand that the case has had you absorbed.
For example, we cannot conclude that Gillīs body was meant for the manure pit - but you make your case in a manner that is quite overwhelming.

Can I ask you, what kind of perpetrator do you think we are looking at? Capīn Jack suggests a man very much along the lines of how he pictures a possible Jack the Ripper - a, shall we say, confused young man. But whatīs your own ideas? A madman, a copycat, a sexual deviant, a cool, calculating fiend, two people in collaboration...?

The best,
Fisherman

Gut feeling, A man like the ripper who merged so perfectly into the surroundings that he became invisible. A man who had dipped his hand in the cash drawer previously and craved that adrenalin rush and excitement.

I believe that the only flaws in the crime was the rushed dumping of the body that left him open to the danger of getting caught and the choice of victim. Everything else was precise, the luring, the concealment, the attention to detail, he would have been most annoyed with himself because he did not anticipate that the police would take such an active interest so soon, the dumping in the locality was not on the menu.

[Fisherman]

Okay, Silverstealth, thanks for sharing. My own feeling tells me much the same; competence and planning seems to be about here. More premeditation and a little less of a compulsive nature, perhaps, than "my" Ripper displays ...

The best!
Fisherman

[Cap'n Jack]

I managed to dig this out from 2005;

Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 1:53 pm:

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Anyways back to the murder of the poor boy in Bradford.

The boy is slaughtered; limbs removed, abdomen missing and heart tucked under his chin; and then the remains are neatly wrapped up in a parcel of the boy’s clothes, tied around with the boy’s belt and dumped in a manure ditch.
Of course we talk of the murder and mutilation of a young male here, rather than a young female, but nonetheless useful lessons can be drawn by comparing this murder to the killing and slaughter of Mary Jane Kelly.
Many will have it that the killing and slaughter of MJK was motivated by the killer’s ‘pleasure zone’, in other words it was a ‘lust’ murder - Colin Wilson, bless his old cotton socks, equated the murder with the actions of copulating dogs - and the killer was experiencing some kind of sexual high by visiting such slaughter on his victim.
I, on the other hand, as ever, have always looked at MJK’s death and mutilation and seen either a ritual or some kind of formalised pattern at work, a pattern that seems to dictate a rudely interrupted finale.
The case of the Bradford boy might well prove to be an important link in establishing the true motive behind what we witness in the slaughter of Mary Jane. Not the murder, I must stress that, I talk solely of the mutilation that followed.
For it does seem obvious to me that the killer of this young boy in Bradford was motivated by one motive and one motive alone concerning the actual slaughter of his victim… and that was to render his victim into the smallest portions possible, so that the victim could be wrapped up as a neat little package and then disposed of in a place and situation where he thought the remains unlikely to be found.
So I see a simple ‘disposal’ motivation for the slaughter of the boy in Bradford, and I do wonder whether a similar motive could be applied to the slaughter of Mary Jane.
Merely that the killer may have been disturbed before he was able to finish his task.


Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 4:55 pm:

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Which brings to mind the Torso Murder near Cable Street.



Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 368
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:05 pm:

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Out of curiosity,since I haven't read about the Bradford Boy and since I see ritualists in my cereal...

Were there police inquiries made in that area,as were done in London at hocus pocus shops [ see C.G.'s and Spiro Demolianis's stories in past Ripperologist magazines ] ?

This one is interesting...Thanks for mentioning it A.P...


Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 585
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:21 am:

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Hi AP,

Most 'disposers', like the 'Torso murderer', just cut of head, arms and legs and 'wrap things up'. Why waste time opening up her abdomen and taking out all organs when they are nicely 'wrapped up' inside her body in the first place? Why waste time cutting her arms and legs and so extensively mutilating her face?

His primary motivation may have been to completely destroy this woman, but I doubt whether his main object was to cut her to pieces and wrap her up into small bundles just to be able to dump the remains of the woman elsewhere so that she wouldn't easily be found.

All the best,
Frank
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"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff




Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 1:26 pm:

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Wasn't the body of Elizabeth Jackson ( classed as one of the 'Thames torso murders' I think ) mutilated before being hacked to pieces ,parcelled up and disposed of in several different places?

If Dr. Hebbert is a reliable source Elizabeth had her chest cavity opened up and organs removed, 2 large flaps of skin removed from her abdomen and right buttock, her intestines were removed and most horific of all, she was six or seven months pregnant and an incision had been made into her womb and the foetus removed.

Debra






AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2052
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 3:50 pm:

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Frank’s point is a good one, as is Debra’s.
Therefore is the removal of internal organs part of the murder ritual, or is it part of the ‘tidying up’ procedure?
Why did the milkman kill the boy in Bradford?
I must try and find out.


Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 4:18 pm:

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AP
I think that eventually the milkman William Barrett was found not guilty, the case against him was purely circumstantial and without a guilty pleading he had no case to answer.


AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2053
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 6:08 pm:

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Well done, Debra, you found the result of the long winded trial a long time before me, despite a mad search I never got to the conclusion.
I had my doubts about William Barrett as the guilty party a long time ago, in particular a witness description of a man seen carrying a parcel of ‘clothes’ through the village at a time that did not match Barrett’s activities on the day of the murder.
However, I still have reservations about his guilt, again in particular with his early unasked-for statement to the police that he no longer employed the murdered boy’s sister because he had ‘read about the outrages being committed on young girls in the newspapers.’
Now that is suspicious. A little bit of scratch at the hatch of madness there.

It was established by the police surgeon that the clothing of the young boy had been removed before death, and then he had been stabbed, twice in the heart, dismembered and then redressed as a ‘parcel’.
I don’t think the killer would have wanted his victim naked before killing him unless there was some kind of sexual motive at play here.
And no, I’m not moving away from my reluctance to label the crimes of such killers as sexual, but in this case the removal of clothes from the boy before the murder does seem to indicate a sexual motive of some nature.
The boy was not after all a whore.

No Howard , I haven’t as yet been able to find any police activity in this regard but I’m still looking.

[Nurse Sarah]

To Rob Clack, thanks for the book information

[Monty]

Tom is quite right, elsewhere is better.
However I will say that for my current purpose and argument the fact that Eddowe's ear was detached from her body and then later rediscovered at the mortuary serves me well and true.

Again, Eddowes ear wasnt noted as detached at the scene of crime (unlike the Gill scene), it was noted as detached at the mortuary. It wasnt 'rediscovered' as it wasnt lost.

To state that it had disappeared is misleading.

Elsewhere is dandy with me.

Monty

[Cap'n Jack]

Elsewhere is where I'm looking for.

[Nurse Sarah]

Hi Cap n Jack and Monty, have created a new thread on Catherines page, so this one can stay on the Gill case....

[Archaic]

Books with Gill/Bradford info

Hi, Sarah; there is a short but excellent bit on the Gill Murder in the book "Letters from Hell" by Stewart P. Evans & Keith Skinner (one of my all-time favorite Ripper books, by the way!)

The authors also cover the subject of the Bradford girl charged with hoaxing Ripper letters, the delightfully named 'Miss Maria Coroner'.

The famous professional executioner James Berry also lived in Bradford, & this girl actually had one of his 'business' cards in her lodgings. (Rather "Goth" of her, don't you think? )

There's a photo in the book of Berry's card & it's pretty cool. But don't ask me what a Professional Executioner DOES with his 'business cards'- perhaps he called upon his friends, and if they were out politely left his calling card in a silver dish on the hallway table in token of his visit?

Personally, I wouldn't want to arrive home to find a hangman's personal card...
too much like getting a dead fish wrapped in newspaper from the Mafia!

Cheers, Archaic