Annie Crook

[Krinoid]

See my thread on Ed Glinert's East end chronicles book for other ideas

[Krinoid]

Why didn't anyone see or hear anything? Well they did.

I MEANT THE ACTUAL "KILLING SCREAMS AND SOUNDS"ETC..,one of the first thing you hear when people discuss each victim is "nobody heard anything",all you are describing are people who saw the deceased before the murder time. How could JTR work with such privacy and pass among everyone so easily without no one noticing blood on him for example and so on?? Someone must have saw something.
From what I read the cry of murder you mentioned was always heard regularly in that area and locals ignored it and there is no direct link to that killing.

[Limehouse]

Why was it not photographed before erasing as other police at the time mentioned??

Police photographers were thin on the ground. They may have not been able to get hold of one at that time of the morning. The longer the message remained - the longer it was likely to cause problems. What should have happened was that it should have been copied down accurately by someone reliable.

We don't even know for sure that the message had anything to do with the murders. Why should one of the Royal Squad want to write a message about 'Jewes'?

As I said before - the method of killing jsut doesn't make sense if the purpose was to cover up a Royal marriage.

The killings have all the hallmarks of a lust killer.

[Krinoid]

Why was the graffiti removed? Because it was feared it would start a riot.

Why was it not photographed before erasing as other police at the time mentioned??

[Limehouse]

And the real reason I think the Royal theory still resonates, is there are too many unexplained or wierd things with this case that are totally different form other serial murders, for example why did so many documents disappear, witneses not matching descriptions of everything from graffiti(and why it was erased abruptly by POLICE) to suspects profiles not matching at all,why there was no blood on the ground of the victims(suggesting movement meaning more than one person), why no one in any area saw anything or heard anything (which is totally unlikely everytime)???
Begg does mention a nun that says something to the effect if MK was not around none of this would have happened,something was being covered up,it might not be a marriage or child but something was. Some of the victims were using the Kelly name and Dorset street is very significant also, why did the killings stop after MK?? was it because the objective was achieved and therefore was extra brutal out of frustration on finishing???

Why did so many documents disappear? - 1. Well it's a very old case so things are bound to go missing or fall apart from age. 2. Scotland Yard was blown up and then moved so again- things get misfiled when they are being moved. 3. People stole them for their novelty value.

Why was the graffiti removed? Because it was feared it would start a riot.

Why were there conflicting statements by witnesses? Because people are only human and mistake one person for another - miscalculate height - forget what the person they saw was wearing and so on.

Why was there no blood on the ground? Well there was. Several accounts of the murders mention the blood being washed from the coobles by a policeman using a bucket of water and one account describes how the blood from Liz Stride's wounds ran across the cobbles.

Why did several of the women use the name Kelly? Because they probably had charges against them for prostitution and didn't want to tott up too many convictions. Also - some of them may have done 'moonlight flits' from lodgings without paying rent and wanted to avoid being tracked down so they changed their names. Kelly was a common name in the district so it was easy to deny being 'that particular Kelly'.

Why did the killings stop ofter MJK? Well - did they?

Why didn't anyone see or hear anything? Well they did. Someone heard a cry of 'Oh! Murder!' on the night that Kelly was killed. Another man heard something falling against the fence in Hanbury Street on the morning that Chapoman died. Chapman was seen near to 29 Hanbury Street on the morning she died and Catherine Eddowes was seen walking down a court with a man towards Mitre Square close to the time she may have died. Kelly was seen with 'Blotchy face' - and so on.

If the Royals had anything to do with this case - I'm a banana!

[Graham]

Krinoid obviously wants to believe in some kind of Royal Conspiracy, but if he/she or anyone else can show me just one iota of proof that anyone in the Royal Family was involved, I'd be very interested. For my money, it stems from persons who either had vivid imaginations or who were out and out liars, or both. I don't recall Joseph Sickert withdrawing his claim - again, if he did, can someone confirm this? Stephen Knight seemed to have concluded that he'd been taken in, and put it down to experience.

Graham

[Krinoid]

I wish the fact that Joseph "Sickert" finally admitted his whole Royal Conspiracy was "a whopping fib" had been reported in the mainstream media even half as much as the ones debunking the Loch Ness Monster surgeon's photo or the crop circles of Doug and Dave.

From what I gather, Sickert retracted that stament later.

[Krinoid]

And the real reason I think the Royal theory still resonates, is there are too many unexplained or wierd things with this case that are totally different form other serial murders, for example why did so many documents disappear, witneses not matching descriptions of everything from graffiti(and why it was erased abruptly by POLICE) to suspects profiles not matching at all,why there was no blood on the ground of the victims(suggesting movement meaning more than one person), why no one in any area saw anything or heard anything (which is totally unlikely everytime)???
Begg does mention a nun that says something to the effect if MK was not around none of this would have happened,something was being covered up,it might not be a marriage or child but something was. Some of the victims were using the Kelly name and Dorset street is very significant also, why did the killings stop after MK?? was it because the objective was achieved and therefore was extra brutal out of frustration on finishing???

[Krinoid]

Pithy post, Limehouse; nicely done

I don't think the Limehouse post was that helpfull, while I agree there is no evidence for the Royal Conspiracy, you could argue that none of the Suspects discussed on this forum and in the many books have any hard evidence at all ALSO.

[Graham]

Couple of brief points:

1] don't think it's true that the Royal Family were held in much awe in those days - there were several attempts to assassinate Queen Victoria, and the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) was quite often booed when he appeared in public. Including a divorce case and the Tranby Croft case when both times he appeared in court.

2] I made a quick check of when Walter Sickert was first associated by a third party with the Ripper Case, and the best I've come up with was 1947 when Sir Osbert Sitwell mentioned in some memoirs that Sickert often talked about the case and claimed to know the identity of JtR. I think this was the origin of the Mad Veterinary Student. Not that I looked all that hard, so I won't be surprised if someone comes up with an earlier date for the first reported association of Sickert with the case.

3] The very concept of a bunch of East End whores blackmailing the RF always sounded totally preposterous to me - for a start, how would they have gone about it? How would anyone go about it today?? Did they plan just to write a simple letter - "All is known" - and take it from there???

Cheers,

Graham

[Krinoid]

Does any one know where this info came form??

Again -Experts is there any factual basis?

. . In 1894 Poor Alice was destitute in Endell St. Workhouse and says mother is a prisoner, however unable to find Annie in 1894
Linda

Where did this information come form above??[/QUOTE]

[kensei]

I'm very into studying the paranormal as well as Jack the Ripper and other true crime stories, and with the ability of a widespread press release to influence large numbers of people I wish the fact that Joseph "Sickert" finally admitted his whole Royal Conspiracy was "a whopping fib" had been reported in the mainstream media even half as much as the ones debunking the Loch Ness Monster surgeon's photo or the crop circles of Doug and Dave.

[Limehouse]

The most interesting thing about the Royal Theory is where it originally sprung from and given the social context of the day (rise of Socialism etc)
-it's a rather glamourous 'urban myth' (people in the East End must have been far more in awe of the RF than they would be today, even if they were critical of their wealth and lifestyles).

The other interesting thing about it, is how well it's stuck. It's amazing how, if I mention JtR to intelligent people, they typically reply "I don't know anything about the subject -only that it was something to do with the Royal Family".

Yes Ruby - I believe you are right. I also think that - because the murderer was not caught - people are far more likely to persist with stories about a royal connection because they think there has been a 'cover up'. I think many people underestimate how difficult it was to catch such a man with very little scientific knowledge about scenes-of-crime available to the police of the time.

[Rubyretro]

The most interesting thing about the Royal Theory is where it originally sprung from and given the social context of the day (rise of Socialism etc)
-it's a rather glamourous 'urban myth' (people in the East End must have been far more in awe of the RF than they would be today, even if they were critical of their wealth and lifestyles).

The other interesting thing about it, is how well it's stuck. It's amazing how, if I mention JtR to intelligent people, they typically reply "I don't know anything about the subject -only that it was something to do with the Royal Family".

[Magpie]

Good post, Limehouse.