Annie Crook

[Limehouse]

Hi All,

The Stephen Knight narrative involving Prince Albert Victor [Eddy] going through a secret Catholic marriage with Annie Elizabeth Crook, thus providing a premise for the Whitechapel murders, is pure and unbridled bunkum.

But . . .

Just prior to the 6th July 1893 marriage of George, Prince of Wales, to Princess Mary "May" of Teck, who had previously been betrothed to the late Prince Albert Victor, a story by George W. Smalley, London Correspondent of the New York Tribune, revealed that a few years earlier George had married "by the Roman Catholic ritual" the daughter of a naval office stationed in Malta. According to the law the marriage was a nullity, but at the time George hoped Eddy would marry and have children, thus leaving him clear to legalize his own marriage. However, the death of Eddy banished that hope, apparently leaving George thoroughly distraught.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

Thanks for that interesting story Simon. Of course - George and Mary went on to make quite a good marriage but there were to be more family secrets that came to light some years later - including the shutting away of one of their children who suffered from epilepsy. I have heard our own Queen make reference to her grandmother - Queen Mary - as a stern but loving grandmother.

I wonder what other secrets she took to her grave in 1953?

[Limehouse]

Juile,
Abberline did quite a cover up over the Cleveland Street scandal ,reported in the press at the time ,so while its true that the prince has not been able to be linked directly it is quite likely he was a regular visitor along with a number of other aristocrats.There was an excellent lecture on it at the Whitechapel Society a couple of years ago.
Best
Norma

Hi Norma

So - if the Prince was a likely or possible client of the brothel - he was unlikely to have entered into a marriage with a shop girl?

Can you jopin the WS even if you don't live in London and can't always get to lectures? The meetings sound so interesting.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Stephen Knight narrative involving Prince Albert Victor [Eddy] going through a secret Catholic marriage with Annie Elizabeth Crook, thus providing a premise for the Whitechapel murders, is pure and unbridled bunkum.

But . . .

Just prior to the 6th July 1893 marriage of George, Prince of Wales, to Princess Mary "May" of Teck, who had previously been betrothed to the late Prince Albert Victor, a story by George W. Smalley, London Correspondent of the New York Tribune, revealed that a few years earlier George had married "by the Roman Catholic ritual" the daughter of a naval office stationed in Malta. According to the law the marriage was a nullity, but at the time George hoped Eddy would marry and have children, thus leaving him clear to legalize his own marriage. However, the death of Eddy banished that hope, apparently leaving George thoroughly distraught.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

There is absolutely no evidence that Prince Albert Victor was involved with the Cleveland Street scandal - there is only rumour.

With reference to why Abberline may have been involved in the Cleveland Street investigation - it was not out of his area at all. He was only seconded to Whitechapel to investigate the Ripper murders. He was seconded there from Scotland Yard and it was never meant to be a permanent appointment. He had also worked in the Whitehall division so it was perfectly reasonable for him to have been placed in charge of the investigation in Cleveland Street because it involved high ranking officers of State.

Hope this helps to answer a few of your questions.

Juile,
Abberline did quite a cover up over the Cleveland Street scandal ,reported in the press at the time ,so while its true that the prince has not been able to be linked directly it is quite likely he was a regular visitor along with a number of other aristocrats.There was an excellent lecture on it at the Whitechapel Society a couple of years ago.
Best
Norma

[Limehouse]

There is absolutely no evidence that Prince Albert Victor was involved with the Cleveland Street scandal - there is only rumour.

With reference to why Abberline may have been involved in the Cleveland Street investigation - it was not out of his area at all. He was only seconded to Whitechapel to investigate the Ripper murders. He was seconded there from Scotland Yard and it was never meant to be a permanent appointment. He had also worked in the Whitehall division so it was perfectly reasonable for him to have been placed in charge of the investigation in Cleveland Street because it involved high ranking officers of State.

Hope this helps to answer a few of your questions.

[Krinoid]

JTR the Facts and the History by Begg mentions another Elizabeth annie crook at the right cleaveland st location and at the right time but says she was a different person? How does he know this, he does not elaborate? Isn't that a strange conicidence Again!!!
another one-the whole fact that Prince albert is associated already with the cleaveland street location due to the scandal of the brothel, before JTR The final solution? So, he did know this area,another conincidence again along with the fact that Abberline was assigned to the Cleaveland Stret scandal!!!Isn't this totally out of his area???

yes I did post on the earlier different surname of Crook(meaning I already knew that), it is hard to do JTR extreme research in the US, i wish people here would read all the posts and stopped judging

[corey123]

Hello Kinroid,

Im not attacking you, rather suggesting that since none seem interested in answering many of these quetions, perhaps you should do some research and perhaps write about it.

No harm intended

[Simon Wood]

Hi Krinoid,

I thought it worth bringing to your attention that your "other Annie Crook" was in fact Elizabeth Cook [note the different surname spelling].

That these were two different women should become apparent by the fact that whilst in 1888 Stephen Knight's Annie Crook was allegedly being spirited away to Guy's Hospital by a "fat man and a woman" for a spot of masonic lobotomy at the hands of Sir William Gull, Elizabeth Cook continued to live at No. 6 Cleveland Street until 1893.

It is also worth noting that prior to Annie Elizabeth Crook and her daughter Alice being brought to the Endell Street Workhouse [where they were recorded as 'destitute'] by PC 453D on 22nd January 1889, they had last been living at No. 9 Pitt Street, Tottenham Court Road.

As you have a copy of Stephen Knight's "JtR: The Final Solution" to hand, you may care to check whether or not he referenced these inconvenient facts which, at the time of his book's original publication, were freely available at the Marylebone Record Office and Greater London Record Office.

In fairness, however, I will credit Stephen Knight with one thing. I believe he was the first to bring Israel Schwartz to our attention.

Regards,

Simon

[Krinoid]

I do have JTR final solution book, I was looking on how to verify some of that info on Crook outside of that book.Do we know what the mother was in prison for? and how we know The other annie crook found was not the right one on Cleaveland street?(see earlier post)

[Krinoid]

Hello Kinroid,

no disrespect to you but obviously no one besides you( and perhaps a few others) subscribe to Knights theory. Obviously there isn't one scrape of evidence to support his theory. If you think otherwise, instead of ranting on this thread perusal you should do more research on your interest and come back once you have.

Just a suggestion.

And furthermore, I did not start this thread, and just asked some questions on some one else's info?So why attack me! Mind your own business

[Krinoid]

Hello Kinroid,

no disrespect to you but obviously no one besides you( and perhaps a few others) subscribe to Knights theory. Obviously there isn't one scrape of evidence to support his theory. If you think otherwise, instead of ranting on this thread perusal you should do more research on your interest and come back once you have.

Just a suggestion.

I think Knight did make some revelations which even author Begg acknowledged in his books(BUT you are probably above him too), I was posting on ED Glinert's ideas not Knight's if you read any of my postings before jumping to the conclusion that you are above everybody else.

[corey123]

Hello Kinroid,

no disrespect to you but obviously no one besides you( and perhaps a few others) subscribe to Knights theory. Obviously there isn't one scrape of evidence to support his theory. If you think otherwise, instead of ranting on this thread perusal you should do more research on your interest and come back once you have.

Just a suggestion.

[Errata]

Anyone else find the title of Jack The Ripper: The Final Solution a little, I don't know, insensitive?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Many thanks for the plug.

Stephen Knight's spellbinding BS is not to be trusted.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Good eveing Krinoid,

It was mentioned in JTR The Final Solution by Stephen Knight page 100. The record discovered shows that on Apr 29, 1894 the child Alice Margaret was admitted to St Giles Workhouse. It was stated on her admission papers that her mother was in prison, which tallies with Sickert's account of Annie Elizabeth's fate.

I have read the book. It was on sale very reasonable. If you have not read it I recommend it, being the starting point for all things about Annie Crook. But as Simon said, key parts have been debunked. And Simon should know, because he was the de-bunker.

In the meantime, I see the Glinert book you mentioned is also on sale very reasonable. I may just procure a copy of that. Then I can have an intelligent discussion of it with you, because quite frankly, I'm at a loss to discuss what I haven't read.

Roy