Annie Crook

[Errata]

He could have been bisexual

It seems infinitely more possible that he was an idiot.

[Krinoid]

Hi Norma

So - if the Prince was a likely or possible client of the brothel - he was unlikely to have entered into a marriage with a shop girl?

Can you jopin the WS even if you don't live in London and can't always get to lectures? The meetings sound so interesting.

He could have been bisexual

[Rubyretro]

sorry -I see that I badly formed my phrase, Nats -obviously the men used prostitutes. what I mean't by Jenny being 'libidinious' or not, was that the word 'lover' had a slightly different meaning then..how do we know how many blokes J actually slept with?

I mean she bore children, so she was fertile -and there was no 'pill'-, and she didn't have loads of 'illegitimates'..so she might not have been up to half as much as we imagine.

[Natalie Severn]

Women may have gone into 'heavy flirtations' with men that they did find attractive, and not neccessarily risked getting pregnant by them (how do we know that Jenny Jerome was "libidinous" ?)..and the men used prostitutes (even if they were emotionally involved elsewhere).

Hi Rubyretro,
There were two recent TV programmes about her ,both of which named her many lovers.Also the Prince of Wales set the tone and had lots of mistresses--Jenny was rumoured to have been one of them, as well as his frequent trips to Paris to go with prostitutes,go to the Moulin Rouge etc. It was something that was boasted about by the men that frequented the Jockey Club in Opera and the Prince was the most illustrious Englishman to be part of that set.They have even named the street next to the Jockey Club after him,in his honour as the "Royal Rake in Residence ".
Best,
Norma

[Rubyretro]

He may well have also used prosititutes as men of his type seemed to. Perhaps it was because they had strange attitudes towards sex with their wives once they had produced offspring

.

I'm not sure that I agree with "men of his type" and "strange attitudes towards sex"..I think that 'prostitution' was a vastly different thing in the past than it is today (viz à viz the motivations of the two parties concerned :

Firstly you have 'respectable' single women refusing sex outside of marriage,
cutting down on the prospects of a single man getting any, considerably.

Next you have no, or very dodgy, birth control and high death rates in childbirth -so even for married women, sex was a bit like playing Russiun Roulette. Once they had done their 'duty' they might not have been overly keen.

Then, you still have 'arranged marriages' for people of Churchill's class...but not only them . I think that if any woman saw a good future for herself, not in the precarious life of a skivvy, and with children and grandchildren to see to her in her old age, she would think twice about refusing a proposal from any man in a position to afford a Family and wanting to make a home...she might not get another proposal. Therefore, there must have been many marriages where there was no sexual attraction, and people didn't even like each other, once the 'descendance' was secured.

Then you get all those poor men in the Doss houses, who have the same biological needs as everyone else, but lived 'hand to mouth' and couldn't afford to pay for a Family..

...and the women in the same boat, who at times had only this option of making money, open to them, resorted to prostitution.

Women may have gone into 'heavy flirtations' with men that they did find attractive, and not neccessarily risked getting pregnant by them (how do we know that Jenny Jerome was "libidinous" ?)..and the men used prostitutes (even if they were emotionally involved elsewhere).

I think prostitution and using prostitutes was far more socially acceptable than today.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

I have heard that Randolph Churchill had syphilis too - in fact there was a probgramme on TV not so long ago that examined his last illness and came to that conclusion. However - I think they presumed he had contracted it abroad but I can't remember why. He may well have also used prosititutes as men of his type seemed to. Perhaps it was because they had strange attitudes towards sex with their wives once they had produced offspring.

.

Yes Julie,except that Randolph"s wife led an even more libidinous life than her husband Randolph! Poor Winston,he adored his mother "from afar" but she seems to have preferred to lead the life of Riley rather than attend to her two son"s as they grew into adults.

[Limehouse]

Hello all,

In the latest A-Z, page 17, the following is noted..

...Prince Albert Victor was central to several scandals, although the only one to become public was the Cleveland St scandal. In 1889 his name was linked with a homosexual brothel frequented by several young aristocrats, but a cover-up kept his name out of the British newspapers... (from various sources)

and further...

...The release of Special Branch papers in 2005 revealed both Palace and police had been at some pains to pay off and send them (Mrs Haddon and her son, Clarence abroad and there seems every possibility that the Haddon claim was true. A note written by the Duke Of Clarence in 1891 to his solicitor, George Lewis, dicussed paying £200 (almost £12,000 in today's money) for the return of the letters written to a Miss Richardson and another woman, thought by modern commentators to have been prostitutes, who were blackmailing the Prince following the announcement of his engagement to Mary of Teck....

It is therefore interesting to note that suggestions of 5 things here, blackmail, involvement with prostitutes, a love child, police involvement and a cover-up, were, although at the wrong time, with the wrong people, all part of the original story that came out in Stephen Knight's book as told by Joseph Sickert. The other thing to note is the date of the release of the Special Branch Papers, 2005. Joseph William Charles Gorman Sickert died in 2003.

Whether true or false, it leaves a very interesting little set of circumstances to ponder over.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil

Great post. It just goes to show what these things can grow into! A royal scandal and a set of murders that rocked the nation eventually become entwined!

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma
I'm sure you're right that none of the known mentioned celebs were JTR and so many combinations of them have been thrown together by various authors.
I have always though been quite concerned by the idea that J.K. Stephen 'gave up food on hearing of the death of eddy',i mean they weren't that close were they? that he would want to die himself within weeks and then the case being closed almost immediately afterwards.Never mind ,just one of those concidences again i suppose.
I have seen mentioned on a forum that was not a jtr website,it was one about freemasons, that someone's research had led him to believe that someone (and he did mention the name but it was not one i knew) from the 'marlbrough club?' had got Mary Kelly pregnant at some point,this would presumably be while she was in the west end.What really caught my attention was that it wasn't a known name connected with JTR.If i can find this again i'll post a link.

Hi there - Sadly - J K Stepen suffered from a mental illness that may have affected his reaction to the news of the death of his friend and student in a more extreme way than others would have reacted. Various members of Stephen's family were affected by the illness - including his cousin - Virginia Woolf - who took her own life by drowning herself.

[Limehouse]

Interesting Packers Stem,
I know Lord Randolph Churchill is said to have lost his mind due to syphilis and that numbers of stories abound about him going with prostitutes which he may have done.But then we get onto the invented stuff---in my opinion, about him being jack the Ripper which I can"t accept.
The whole business must have had every rake and odd ball in London suspected by their friends and relatives of being JtR.Meanwhile the real JtR was
having a ball!
Norma

Hi Norma

I have heard that Randolph Churchill had syphilis too - in fact there was a probgramme on TV not so long ago that examined his last illness and came to that conclusion. However - I think they presumed he had contracted it abroad but I can't remember why. He may well have also used prosititutes as men of his type seemed to. Perhaps it was because they had strange attitudes towards sex with their wives once they had produced offspring.

I agree that amoing that class - anyone displaying strange or distressed behaviour may have been suspected of being JtR by their families. I believe this is what happened to Druitt. There may even have been cases of mental illness where the family member themselves feared that they were Jack and confided in a member of the family. Perhaps this was so in Druitt's case.

Personally - if I was looking for someone who was JtR - I'd be looking for someone who was local and who would have been trusted by the women because he seemed so familiar. I'd be looking for someone who behaved normally between attacks - perhaps someone like Peter Sutcliffe.

[packers stem]

Hi Norma
I'm sure you're right that none of the known mentioned celebs were JTR and so many combinations of them have been thrown together by various authors.
I have always though been quite concerned by the idea that J.K. Stephen 'gave up food on hearing of the death of eddy',i mean they weren't that close were they? that he would want to die himself within weeks and then the case being closed almost immediately afterwards.Never mind ,just one of those concidences again i suppose.
I have seen mentioned on a forum that was not a jtr website,it was one about freemasons, that someone's research had led him to believe that someone (and he did mention the name but it was not one i knew) from the 'marlbrough club?' had got Mary Kelly pregnant at some point,this would presumably be while she was in the west end.What really caught my attention was that it wasn't a known name connected with JTR.If i can find this again i'll post a link.

[Natalie Severn]

Interesting Packers Stem,
I know Lord Randolph Churchill is said to have lost his mind due to syphilis and that numbers of stories abound about him going with prostitutes which he may have done.But then we get onto the invented stuff---in my opinion, about him being jack the Ripper which I can"t accept.
The whole business must have had every rake and odd ball in London suspected by their friends and relatives of being JtR.Meanwhile the real JtR was
having a ball!
Norma

[packers stem]

Hi all
"on the morning of the 13th january the prince became delirious and began shouting about his regiment and his brother officers,Lord Salisbury and Lord Randolph Churchill" Edward and Alexandra page 183.
"on the 13th he was delirious,raving and shouting the names of people who were not there,and never had been.'who's that' he asked over and over again,seeing no-one" The importance of being edward page 331

Strange that these two men should be uppermost in his mind in his dying hours along with the 'who's that' as if he was afraid of someone.Did he feel that his death was not altogether natural?
Obviously the Cleveland Street scandal being the most obvious reason for his above mentioned behaviour.
The previous post by Phil is very interesting in that it gives us many of the Sickert story ingredients.Bribery,blackmail,illigitimate child.
I suspect people have been very harsh on Joseph and that all he was probably trying to do was to tell a story woven by Walter ,a compulsive story teller.
Now time to branch off a bit again-
If there was an irish connection to the ripper could Walter have known this through any of the artists house sharing with McGrath.Knowing such a big story and not daring to say anything ,could he have come by all this later information regarding eddy and found a way to link a conspiracy theory with eddy thus satisfying his compulsion to relay a conspiracy without putting himself in danger.
or worse still-
There was mention by Knight of a scapegoat being set up.
Could this whole prince eddy story have been the scapegoat story to be leaked in case of anyone getting too close to the truth?Of course if there was never any suggestion of a cover up pre 1970 this would be irrelevant wouldn't it?

[Phil Carter]

PAV in the A-Z

Hello all,

In the latest A-Z, page 17, the following is noted..

...Prince Albert Victor was central to several scandals, although the only one to become public was the Cleveland St scandal. In 1889 his name was linked with a homosexual brothel frequented by several young aristocrats, but a cover-up kept his name out of the British newspapers... (from various sources)

and further...

...The release of Special Branch papers in 2005 revealed both Palace and police had been at some pains to pay off and send them (Mrs Haddon and her son, Clarence abroad and there seems every possibility that the Haddon claim was true. A note written by the Duke Of Clarence in 1891 to his solicitor, George Lewis, dicussed paying £200 (almost £12,000 in today's money) for the return of the letters written to a Miss Richardson and another woman, thought by modern commentators to have been prostitutes, who were blackmailing the Prince following the announcement of his engagement to Mary of Teck....

It is therefore interesting to note that suggestions of 5 things here, blackmail, involvement with prostitutes, a love child, police involvement and a cover-up, were, although at the wrong time, with the wrong people, all part of the original story that came out in Stephen Knight's book as told by Joseph Sickert. The other thing to note is the date of the release of the Special Branch Papers, 2005. Joseph William Charles Gorman Sickert died in 2003.

Whether true or false, it leaves a very interesting little set of circumstances to ponder over.

best wishes

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

So - if the Prince was a likely or possible client of the brothel - he was unlikely to have entered into a marriage with a shop girl?

Can you jopin the WS even if you don't live in London and can't always get to lectures? The meetings sound so interesting.

Oh I think Don Rumbelow showed that was a lot of nonsense Julie.He showed the workhouse records throughout the lives of the Crook women and there isnt the slot for it to have happened---certainly not marriage.
The answer is that you certainly can be a member Julie,there were people there from Yorkshire and the midlands who had travelled down for it.And its worth it,last night"s meeting was fantastic!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Limehouse,

I would think Queen Mary took many secrets to her grave.

Prince Eddy was reported to have died of pnuemonia in January 1892, but as early as 30th October 1889 the New York Times reported that "word was sent around to the London dailies" not to print certain news from Athens about his health and that "the papers here all obeyed the suggestion."

The New York Times correspondent continued, "A medical report received here today says the effects of Bright's disease are beginning to be obvious, and the result of his [Eddy's] visit to Egypt will be watched for with deep anxiety."

According to various medical journals of the time Bright's disease and syphilis were fairly closely related, so perhaps one of the rumours about the cause of Eddy's death was true.

That would have been a secret worth keeping.

Regards,

Simon