Nicholls, Chapman. And The Knife...

[perrymason]

Michael,
the Choke hold i have in mind would require both arms to be used one is placed around the neck the other is placed behind the neck to provide the pressure. I described the choke in detail to Malcolm in the MO thread if you rinterested in reading it. It i a choke hold that is derived for common hnd to hand combat training as far back as the American civil war so it is a method that was known at the time. and just as another note if this choke is executed properly it doesnt leave any marks.

Hi smezenen,

After I left here yesterday I had a thought regarding this idea of yours. If this was some kind of hold akin to what youve described...I did read it when you posted it ...then it may well be a very good way to narrow the search parameters on Suspects.

What kind of person would know of a hold that could knock someone out so fast....the Victorian equivalent of your hold may be different, so it might not have the same efficiency that the one you described would, but quickly doing the trick is fast enough I think.

What occupations, environments, literature, educational facilities might be able and willing to train someone to subdue quickly with a choke hold?.....ones that were available in London in 1888.

For me, an obvious answer is in a Police force that became world famous for not carrying lethal weapons while on patrol....even when almost all the criminals were. I "tensed" it in the way I did because some Constables do now carry firearms dont they?

Soldiers, as you could perhaps verify, are also trained to subdue, and would know some techniques as its likely you learned yours in that manner, but the main part of your physical and skills training would be on weaponry and mortal combat scenarios, yes?

It kinda gave me a light-bulb over the head when I realized Police would likely have been trained to subdue disorderlies in similar fashion.

If Jack was a cop.....so much could be explained.

Cheers smezenen

[Sam Flynn]

It kinda gave me a light-bulb over the head when I realized Police would likely have been trained to subdue disorderlies in similar fashion.

What is yet to be determined is whether the "choke-hold" technique was taught to British police, or even soldiers, in the Late Victorian Period - whether, in fact, it was even known to them.

Bear in mind that wrestling was a popular "underground" entertainment in the East End, and there were thugs aplenty. If we're looking for potential "choke-holders", then we needn't confine our thoughts to servicemen. In fact, we might better direct our thoughts elsewhere.

[DVV]

Sorry, Mike, just a short and stupid post

If Jack was a cop.....so much could be explained.

Yes Mike,

and I would be even more precise: a Jewish and syphilitic cop.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Hi David,

No harm nor offense taken,

Sam, on your post;

What is yet to be determined is whether the "choke-hold" technique was taught to British police, or even soldiers, in the Late Victorian Period - whether, in fact, it was even known to them.

Bear in mind that wrestling was a popular "underground" entertainment in the East End, and there were thugs aplenty. If we're looking for potential "choke-holders", then we needn't confine our thoughts to servicemen. In fact, we might better direct our thoughts elsewhere.

Very fair and exactly the kind of input I had hoped for Gareth, some searching around a bit to see who would know of such a techinique, and what that technique might entail in Victorian Times. I didnt mean we should look at the police in isolation.

I think one thing this man does extremely well apparently is control this portion of his evenings out. He seems competent. Weve always wondered how he gets them to lie down but never really pushed that envelope a bit further here, to my knowledge. A choke hold of some kind, inducing an unconscious state in seconds, would be ideal. Its also suggesting her uses his hands first, and I think that is very relevant. This isnt arms length stabs, he grabs them in his arms. "The last dance before the carriage ride home" if you will.

All the best Sam

[smezenen]

Michael,
Im not sure what training the police force would get in Victorian London. From a conversation with my father-in-law (chief of police in a one horse town) this evening, he informs me that modern police forces are trained to take a person to the ground and subdue them using pressure points. they are not trained on any choke holds as this would be considered leathal force. I do know that the paticular choke i described was taught to civil war soldiers during their hand to hand combat training (its a very simple choke and easy to master). today its called the "rear naked choke" back in the 1860's it was a "choke from behind". This choke would also have been known to anyone who studied martial arts and is in fact a technique that dates back about to the origins of Karate around 1400. It could have been known to police, soldiers, karateka, wrestlers, and anyone who picked up a book on the subject. Of that group I would look more at the soldiers and in paticular anyone that was a mercenary soldier (they would have more specific training in hand to hand combat).

Did the British Army have a special forces type unit at the time? That would be a very good place to start looking for a mercenary type soldier with specific training in hand to hand as well as the use of a knife. If i had to start looking at American units i would pick a unit like Quantrill's Raiders some of those boys where as nasty as they come and a few where only 15 and 16 years old in 1863, putting them around 40 in 1888. in fack Jesse James was one of Quantrills boys he would have been only 16 in 1863. Well i guess that enough side track and rattle from me for tonight. Cheers

[perrymason]

Hi smezenen,

It my intention to research this on the weekend when I have more time, to see if there is any data that might suggests specific occupational training like for Police Work in the LVP.

Soldiers are trained to essentially defeat any obstacles and much of that is in the form of lethal force training with respect to self defense, correct? Im assuming that contemporary soldiers would not have spent a great deal of time with sleep or choke hold training, not Victorian soldiers.

So your occupation suggestions show, you didnt specifically note soldiers in your suggestions...this element of his style may be a key to his MO on 60% of the alleged Ripper kills, perhaps as much as 75%, if Liz Stride was not one of his.

If we were to find out that perhaps 1/2 dozen activities or occupations of the era offered some of that kind of education, what a potential suspect field narrowing that could be.

All the best smez.