Nicholls, Chapman. And The Knife...

[Chava]

Nicholls' Inquest. Llewellyn's testimony:

"On the right side of the face there is a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw. It might have been caused by a blow with the fist or pressure by the thumb. On the left side of the face there was a circular bruise, which also might have been done by the pressure of the fingers."

Chapman's Inquest. Baxter Phillips testimony:

"The face was swollen and turned on the right side, and the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips; it was much swollen."

At that point in the series, it looks as if the Ripper subdued his victims by choking them almost to death before he lowers them to the ground and cuts their throats. Later on, in Eddowes, there seems to be no sign of this ahead of the cuts. However Stride did have a scarf drawn very tightly round her neck.

What do we learn from this? If the Ripper was solely interested in mutilating the abdomen and taking trophy organs, then why didn't he simply continue to strangle his victims until they were dead and then commence cutting them? It would be easier and quicker. He already had them half-dead if not more than that. He has to subdue them with both hands--clearly the wounds on Nicholls are inflicted with his right hand, which would be the hand he uses for the knife, so he's not going for it until she's down. In the 'Knife' thread I wondered how he carried his knife and how he got hold of it to kill. Now I think he doesn't have to get hold of it until the victim is down, at least at the start of the series. By the end, he has it ready in hand and strikes quickly with it, knowing he will be using it for further satisfaction immediately.

I believe the knife itself, rather than the mutilation and organ-grabbing, is the important part of the ritual. Much more important than I at first suspected. I thought the knife was simply a means to an end. However now I think the knife is the beginning and the end. The source of his joy. And the throat-cut starts the gratification process for the killer. From there he goes to other cutting until, I suspect, he reaches some kind of mental or physical climax. I think that is why the progression of violence to the bodies. Nicholls is ripped but still vaguely intact. Chapman is missing organs. Eddowes is cut extensively and missing organs. Kelly is taken apart. What I think is happening here is a refinement of pleasure on the part of the killer. And this, maybe, is why the orgy of disfigurement inflicted on Eddowes. He was thwarted in his plans for Stride, and rushed off to find another 'lover' as fast as possible. Once found, he employs his knife as much as possible before he reaches his point of maximum pleasure and leaves. We have no idea how long he stayed with Kelly, but that could, for him have been the equivalent of an all-night orgy. And that might explain the extensive, horrendous mess he left. It's not the mutilation that gets him off. It's the use of the knife.

Now does this help us with Tabram? Not really. One could argue--and Gareth certainly will--that this proves that Tabram wasn't a Ripper victim. There doesn't seem to be much room for refinement of cutting in that murder. On the other hand, the Tabram murder might have been committed for lots of other non-sexual reasons. But it might have been there that the killer discovered a source of excitement he had never experienced before.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Exactly, Nichols and Chapman are the only victims who were evidently physically subdued before having their throats cut, Eddowes seems to have been, again going by the evidence, caught offguard somehow. Unless the Inquest just failed to mention and/or recognize any signs of her having been subdued prior to being murdered.

[Mr Chumley]

weapon of choice

Much has been made of the knife used, but there are endless possibilities. If a medical knife such as those made by Weiss such as the liston surgical instrument or amputation knife, a variety can be seen by reference to surgical instuments, the question still arises as to the length and concealement and accesibilty of such a weapon. Further there is the cost, theft or somehow the obtaining of a precision instrument, not withstanding the Dr, Fenian Society or Royal surgeon theories!
A smaller weapon such as the cut throat razor would have sufficed for the wounds to the throat.
Further with endless speculation on the potential foreigner/ easterner/ mixed race / sailor aspect ( see image carved in Abberlines stick), could not a Japenese Tanto or hari kiri knife not be plausable, shorter and more easily concealed. It was interesting that it was only a few years earlier that these samurai rituals were revealed to an English sea Captain. The Tanto knife was used for disembowlment and by Japanese women to slit their throats in ritual suicide. It may be that this was observed or known by the Suspect.
As to the act, it has been pointed out that one preferred trick was a rear entry method with the lady braced hands against the wall, giving the suspect an option to pull the weapon, excuse the pun, and cut left to right from behind, also this action would allow greater and deeper cutting action, almost severing the head. a further option would be to get the lady to kneel, raising her skirts and on bare knees so as not to get their clothes even more dirty, in a position to deliver oral sex. The suspect then, possibly whilst the lady was unbottoning his trousers could in a fairly seemless action yank her hair back exposing her throat, (the ladies at this period were used to what may be percieved by todays standards a far rougher handling), and stepping around to her rear, hair still held, cut away or throttle merrily.
The question of death before slicing is interesting due to the amount of blood pumped from an arterial wound, the distance it travels and the splash and soak area when a heart is still beating.

[smezenen]

could not a Japenese Tanto or hari kiri knife not be plausable, shorter and more easily concealed.

Mr. C
I own a few of those Tantos as well as a few other knifes, swords. axes, and other bladed instuments, about 75 altogether. The Tanto is shorter and easier to conceal but it has the disadvantage of not holding a sharp edge making it a weapon that tears more than it cut. Yes they are used to disembowel but not in a surgical manner.
If the act of Seppuku was conducted hasilty on the battlefield then the tanto would be plunged into the upper abdomen then twisted to rip the internal organs, but when performed ritually in the home or at a temple the tanto would be drawn across the abdomen from right to left in an upward motion, the suicidest would then lower his head as a signal to his assistant. The assistant would then behead the suicidest.

The Blade the Ripper used to remove an organ would have had to be thinner and sharper. Im of the opinion that he may have used more than one blade. One to cut the throat and open the abdomen and another to do the inside work.

[DVV]

I believe the knife itself, rather than the mutilation and organ-grabbing, is the important part of the ritual.

However now I think the knife is the beginning and the end. It's not the mutilation that gets him off. It's the use of the knife.

Now does this help us with Tabram? Not really. One could argue--and Gareth certainly will k

Hi Chava,

that's very interesting.
I'm not sure we should discuss about Tabram here...
But about Gareth certainly... if you read his post (#81) on the "Ripper's signature" thread, I'm pretty sure you'll appreciate it.

Amitiés,
David

[Mr Chumley]

Thank you for that, I'm new to this, having recently read the book updated by Paul begg, although always had an interest in this topic, it fired my grey cells into overdrive, so many questions!!

[Mr Chumley]

knives n all

Ok thats the Tanto covered, right general question/idea time, and as a beginner, not withstanding our colonial cousins idiots guide:
1. Only 2 victims out of the 5 were mutilated, why?
2. throats cut across, the same in possibly 4 cases, did he/they not have access to a particular weapon for all of the killings?. if not ,maybe then other throat cuttings minus mutilation, could be the same guy before or after he obtained the "signature" weapon.He may have moved out of the "hotspot" so a wider net would need to be cast for victims
3.Time to subdue the victim by strangulation, which takes upwards of a good five minutes plus,( again not withstanding the ladies were under the influence of alcohol and less likely to fight back, possibly chloroformed?) would give the guy less time on target to do what he wanted and certainly would have, I suggest, unless he was one "uber cool dude", to act potentially in a rushed manner leading to being seen or leaving evidence, which he apparently did not. So how did he undertake his task in very dim light with precision?
4. its been suggested the mutilations, apart from Kelly, were carried out at the mortuary later by someone selling the body parts, leaving strangulation/chloroforming and slashing as the main pastime, what do you think?

[Limehouse]

Only two victims mutilated? I make it at least four.

[Mr Chumley]

sorry, needed to check my book, suggests that Chapman and Eddowes had more serious work done.Nicholls was proded about, Stride got a necklace, and Kelly the works, apologies, I was thinking in terms of organ removals linked to the possibilty that our boy may not be the one with the surgical skill

[perrymason]

Hi Chava,

One thing can be concluded almost certainly about the killer of those 2, he had a manner of cutting off the victims air rapidly and efficiently. The implication is that he would have used 2 hands to physically engage them at the initial phase. Kate may have been punched first in my opinion.

They are thought to be on the ground and immobile when he first uses the knife.

Liz Stride may have been choked using her scarf twisted tight, and cut while falling into the exact position she is found. The implication there is that he held the knife with one hand when he attacked.

All the best Chava

[Mr Chumley]

one hand could be used, pressure on the carotid artery, can induce unconciousness in seconds, a knot in a scarf, or thumb pressure could take someone down quickly

[smezenen]

Ok thats the Tanto covered, right general question/idea time, and as a beginner, not withstanding our colonial cousins idiots guide:
1. Only 2 victims out of the 5 were mutilated, why?
2. throats cut across, the same in possibly 4 cases, did he/they not have access to a particular weapon for all of the killings?. if not ,maybe then other throat cuttings minus mutilation, could be the same guy before or after he obtained the "signature" weapon.He may have moved out of the "hotspot" so a wider net would need to be cast for victims
3.Time to subdue the victim by strangulation, which takes upwards of a good five minutes plus,( again not withstanding the ladies were under the influence of alcohol and less likely to fight back, possibly chloroformed?) would give the guy less time on target to do what he wanted and certainly would have, I suggest, unless he was one "uber cool dude", to act potentially in a rushed manner leading to being seen or leaving evidence, which he apparently did not. So how did he undertake his task in very dim light with precision?
4. its been suggested the mutilations, apart from Kelly, were carried out at the mortuary later by someone selling the body parts, leaving strangulation/chloroforming and slashing as the main pastime, what do you think?

well alot of questions and good ones at that. You will find that there are many great theories and opinions expressed here on casebook. here are MY answers to your questions.

1. Natural progression in his MO.

Mary Nicholes, cut throat, abdomen mutilation but no organ removed (this is the baseline)

Annie Chapman, cut throat (same), cut to abdomen (same) uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder missing (new)

Elizabeth Stride, cut throat (same) but then for some reason he abandons the kill. Interrupted? Not a ripper kill? Trying a now method and decises he doesnt like it?

Catherine Eddows, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) kidney and uterus missing (same) face mutilation (new)

Mary Jane Kelly, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) heart missing (same) face mutilation (same) extent of overall mutilation is extreme in this case because he had more time with the body (new)

2. No weapon found was atributed to Jack so anyones guess is good about which style knife or even how many he used. All the murder atributed to Jack happened in a very small area. check out the very wonderfull work by Septic Blue on this thread http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...6532#post76532

3. The time it takes to strangle someone varies greatly with the method used. You are correct in stating it could take up to 5 minutes, if done with the hands and from the front. ( I believe jack tried it this way with MJK but failed and had to go to his knife early) But when done from behind and using the whole arm unconsciousness can be achieved in as little as 5 -10 seconds. his victims need not be dead at this point only unconscious. then he cuts the throat to kill them.

4 Total hocum there are police discriptions of the crime scene describing the mutilations before the body is taken to the mortuary.

Hope those answers give you something to ponder, I am by no means an expert here so check out some of the other theories and see what you think.

[perrymason]

... But when done from behind and using the whole arm unconsciousness can be achieved in as little as 5 -10 seconds. his victims need not be dead at this point only unconscious. then he cuts the throat to kill them.

Im not sure I agree with the extension of some ideas there, but on the above line, thats the ticket smez. Thats all he need do, and with the time available and taken, the faster this part goes the better. If Im logically following this further, it would be awkward to have a knife in either hand while doing this, even when using one arm primarily...fair? Maybe the free hand covers her mouth.

I still think its possible that some agent was used that was not detectable.

All the best.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Polly seems the likeliest to have been caught by the throat from behind (or from the side) judging by the bruising of her jaw. If that's the case, then it's probable Annie and Kate went the same way, albeit more 'sophisticately'.

[smezenen]

Im not sure I agree with the extension of some ideas there, but on the above line, thats the ticket smez. Thats all he need do, and with the time available and taken, the faster this part goes the better. If Im logically following this further, it would be awkward to have a knife in either hand while doing this, even when using one arm primarily...fair? Maybe the free hand covers her mouth.

I still think its possible that some agent was used that was not detectable.

All the best.

Michael,
the Choke hold i have in mind would require both arms to be used one is placed around the neck the other is placed behind the neck to provide the pressure. I described the choke in detail to Malcolm in the MO thread if you rinterested in reading it. It i a choke hold that is derived for common hnd to hand combat training as far back as the American civil war so it is a method that was known at the time. and just as another note if this choke is executed properly it doesnt leave any marks.