Between Liz and Eddowes...

[DVV]

Church Lane is much closer to Berner Street than to Church Passage, so we can assume that the distance between Church Lane and Church passage could be covered within a bit more than 5 minutes. But note that the Star account vaguely says "at about half past one". If the man in Church Lane was Jack, he certainly left immediatly after "having tried to conceal his face", and if this happened, let's say, at 1.25, the timing could be correct.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

From the Star, 1 October:

"From two different sources, we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat."

Sugden's comment :

"The fascinating thing about the Church Lane report is that it appeared before any of these other descriptions had been published. Only a version of PC Smith's description, with references to a black diagonal coat and hard felt hat, was then in circulation. Furthermore, Church Lane might logically have been traversed by anyone walking from Berner Street to Mitre Square."

Fascinating, indeed.

Amitiés all,
David

That is an interesting tale David, Ive always imagined this man might be connected to Liz's murder, ...but the man could easily have been involved in only one or neither of the events that night. I personally believe this may be the man that killed Liz, after being shuffled off by the Club members, and for the life of me I don't picture him puting on the red neckerchief after this sighting and just in time for the Three Wise Men's sighting at 1:35.

Why would Jack the Ripper pause where he could be seen to clean his hands of blood, or his knife....then after that put a scarf on, and trundle off to Mitre to get bloody again.

Whats clear with many aspects of these crimes is that you literally have to play out the scenarios, with some imagination, assessing what are likely behaviors or attitudes of a man that eluded the largest manhunt in history to that point in England, and made all his kills within a single square mile.

The account sounds like a simple minded criminal, thinking more about removing evidence of a crime he just committed... rather than preparing to go killing anyone else. As simple as perhaps a burly drunk thug who assaults a women in front of witnesses before he ends up killing her minutes later.

If Jack didnt kill Liz, then her killer can be anyone with a knife just above an ape, because nothing about her murder is sophisticated or cunning at all.

Best regards as always.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
true, several objections spring to one's mind, reading this uncorroborated account.
Still, the location, the sailor's hat...
Not enough, of course, to be sure it was Jack, far from it, and you're welcome to call it a tale. Tales are often fascinating to me, I confess.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I thought it was the jacket and neckerchief of Lawende's man that made him have a salior-like appearance, not his actual cap, which going by the description of, seemed like something pretty much the majority of Victorian men in the area would wear.

[Mrs Darrell]

I did the walk today in 10 minutes flat. Of course I knew exactly where I was going and i walked with a fast stride (if you'll pardon the pun). From a time perspective then, i don't think it's a problem that he killed the two women, in fact if he did kill Liz, he may well have gone to St Boltoph's to look for a nother woman, and found Kate.

[Eastender]

Hello Everyone, Im a newbie to the casebook and found this thread most interesting. I have a couple of ideas Id like to share and would value your opinion very much. Could JTR have been in service? The victim dates seem to fall into a two week or so pattern which might suggest his days off , and as these coincide with some 'High days and Holidays' when servants were likley to be let off, could he be in Whitechapel visiting home? Also , October was (and still is ) the height of the Game season,Red deer especially, so might his absence be explaind by his being required eslewhere ,in the country for example for hunting, by his employer.

[Eastender]

Sorry, have posted this in wrong thread....should have been in Why no killings in october thread

[The Grave Maurice]

Don't worry, Eastender, someone will move this to the appropriate thread in due course. In service, eh? An interesting idea. Maybe you could expand on your thoughts over on the October thread.

[Eastender]

Thanks Maurice will do !

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

How does anyone know that for sure. A minimal amount of blood on the hands is surely possible.

Minimal,not much...........
Ever agree to agree.......
Not suprised Malcolm X gets pissed off!

[Mr.Hyde]

Personally I reckon he had a feed of Cachous,went looking for some rope for the night,and some chalk-he was getting bored and felt like some grafitto for a change!

[perrymason]

Hello Everyone, Im a newbie to the casebook and found this thread most interesting. I have a couple of ideas Id like to share and would value your opinion very much. Could JTR have been in service? The victim dates seem to fall into a two week or so pattern which might suggest his days off , and as these coincide with some 'High days and Holidays' when servants were likley to be let off, could he be in Whitechapel visiting home? Also , October was (and still is ) the height of the Game season,Red deer especially, so might his absence be explaind by his being required eslewhere ,in the country for example for hunting, by his employer.

Hi Eastender,

Youve noticed that there seems to be intervals of inactivity somewhat regularly....

In fact Jack the Ripper victims start in late August, only occur on Holidays, Weekends or days adjacent to either, never mid-week, are only within the same 10 days of each month, the last or second last of the month to the 9th of the next...and the October/November period only had a single kill....Aug/Sept, and Sept/Oct had 2 kills within that 10 day period.

There are in my opinion factors that may have prohibited his killing in Whitechapel during the 20-21 days each month he doesnt have accredited kills or misfires.

Interesting that you mention the service considering the circumstances of Martha Tabrams murder...she is thought by many to be a likely Ripper victim.

Whether his job, his "service", his preference or his recreation, I think youre right....he was away for periods.

Though for me, its probably aboard a vessel.

Best regards EE.

[Malcolm X]

Minimal,not much...........
Ever agree to agree.......
Not suprised Malcolm X gets pissed off!

and maybe Malcolm X is persuing something else too Dave
I remember what i posted in about a month ago on that Chapman thread ``maybe the killer had a dual personality``

[Sam Flynn]

in fact if he did kill Liz, he may well have gone to St Boltoph's to look for a nother woman, and found Kate.

Interesting, Mrs D. If he had "the horn" for a victim, what betook him to a narrow back-street in St George's East in the first place?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Eastender,

Youve noticed that there seems to be intervals of inactivity somewhat regularly....

... and Eastender has already noted that his/her observation was posted on the wrong thread - so no need to discuss further here