Psycholanalysis

[paul emmett]

the indoor has a symbolism to it too. Progression? Yes, because when you think in terms of the womb, and the 'sexual" type of mutilations, and then MJK has her heart taken. All of these hold a good suggestion of why he was doing it.

...........I do think that there may have been some problems in his relationship with his mother but I think Jack may have felt ripped away from his mom. I think he was trying to get back to that. uhhh... does anyone think that he was naked when he killed MJK?

If the indoor room along with the breast/womb/kidneys allowed him to feel at one with mother, perhaps that is why he can move away from womb/infantile/mother/symbiosis/ to heart/mature/woman/"love." Pilgrim said "mother/woman" to "woman/mother," whereas, I would say whore/mother/woman to woman/mother/whore. I gotta think this over.

But BK, I'd like to say one other thing. You say JTR might have felt ripped away from his mom; others would say we all feel ripped away from our moms--and, handling it allows us to mature.

Oh, what of the degree of mutilation here?

[Sam Flynn]

If the indoor room along with the breast/womb/kidneys allowed him to feel at one with mother... I gotta think this over...

...when you do, Paul, try to factor in what the killer's issue was with his mother's kidneys, spleen, pancreas, small intestines and a host of other "unisex" organs that he removed

[paul emmett]

I'd be genuinely interested to see where you take it, BK, however any theory must account for why different trophies were taken - that's true whether one factors Kelly into the list or not.

Hello, Sam. I know you won't agree with this, but I agree. And that IS what I have been trying to do.

I know you wont believe this, but when I said in my last post, "I gotta think this over," I knew that you were coming, but I left it there. I guess cuz it's always nice to chat.

All them organs? I'll work on it, but I don't think the spleen is prioritized by Jack like the womb is. Do you?

Paul

[Pilgrim]

Menaced Assassins.

"Freud continued to stare at me without paying the slightest attention to my magazine. Trying to interest him, I explained that it was not a surrealist diversion, but was really an ambitiously scientific article, and I repeated the title, pointing to it at the same time with my finger. Before his imperturbable indifference, my voice became involuntarily sharper and more insistent. Then, continuing to stare at me with a fixity in which his whole being seemed to converge, Freud exclaimed, addressing Stefan Zweig, "I have never seen a more complete example of a Spaniard. What a fanatic !

(...)

My first aggression was perpetrated on a boy of thirteen. I had been watching him for some time stupidly eating a large piece of bread with some chocolate - a mouthful of bread, a mouthful of chocolate. These alternate, almost mechanical gestures, appeared to me to reveal a profound lack of intelligence. Moreover, he was ugly, and the chocolate he was eating, which was of atrocious quality, inspired me with an immense contempt for its consumer. I approached the boy furtively, pretending to be absorbed in the reading of a book by Prince Kropotkin which I always carried with me on my walks. My victim saw me coming, but he had no suspicions of me and continued to devour his bread and his chocolate while looking in another direction. I sized him up and planned what I was going to do, indulging at leasure in the great luxury of premeditation as I approached him. After having observed his horrible, idiotic, uncouth manner of eating, and especially of swallowing, I slapped him hard right in the face, making his bread and chocolate fly high in the air. After which I dashed off in a frenzied flight as fast as my legs could carry me. It took the lad a long time to realize what had happened to him, and when he understood it and tried to run after me I was already so far away that he immediately abandoned his angry impulse to dash after me. I saw him stoop down and pick up his piece of bread and his chocolate.

My unpunished success immediately caused such acts of aggression to assume the endemic character of a real vice which I could no longer forego. I would be on the lookout for every propitious occasion to commit similar acts, and I grew more and more reckless. Soon I noticed that the sympathetic or antipathetic character of my victims no longer played an essential role, and that my pleasure arose solely from the anguish inherent in the execution and the vicissitudes of the assault itself."

The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, p. 25, p.120.

My Regards.

Pilgrim. Heya there you are!

I'm feeling a bit duhhhh - can you elaborate and explain your post to me, and what you mean by it. I'm sorry I have the most horrible sinus headache and my "getting it" is not going to happen.

Thanks Guy!

Hi...

Sorry if the sine waves in my first post gave you a sinus headache.

~~~

My post with the Dali quote... I made that to suggest that there could be a link between some ideas relating to psychoanalysis and serial violence, and paranoia and a certain "mother image". I think it could be fair to say that Dali was a paranoiac and that it may have been at least partially hereditary. Dali's paternal grandfather was suffering from persecutory delusions and killed himself by jumping - or walking ? - out of a window. And Dali's father had a brother suffering from the same problems. He also tried to jump - or walk ? - out of another window. From the age of 20, Dali's grandfather were living with a married woman 5 years older than him. Dali was 25 when he met the 35 year old Gala. And she is known to have been an abusive mother, mistreating the one child she had with the poet Paul Eluard. She is also supposed to have detested being a mother.

My Regards.


René Magritte (1898-1967), The Menaced Assassin, 1927.

[Sam Flynn]

All them organs? I'll work on it, but I don't think the spleen is prioritized by Jack like the womb is. Do you?

I don't think the womb was necessarily prioritised, Paul, because it, and the bladder, are the only portable organs in a woman's lower abdomen. After Jack cut open his victims' abdominal walls he was left with comparatively little choice of "trophy". He went further in Mitre Square, of course, but then one has to find a specific "misogynistic" connotation for the excision of a kidney and a section of descending colon. If there is, I can't think of it.

[Pilgrim]

"Holy Mother"

~~~

"My life was a constant and furious affirmation of my growing and imperialistic personality, each hour was a new victory of the "ego" over death. On the other hand, I observed around me only continual compromises with this death. Not for me ! With death I would never compromise.

My mother's death supervened, and this was the greatest blow I had experienced in my whole life. I worshipped her; her image appeared to me unique. I knew that the moral values of her saintly soul were high above all that is human, and I could not resign myself to the loss of a being on whom I counted to make invisible the unavowable blemishes of my soul - she was so good that I thought that "it would do for me too." She adored me with a love so whole and so proud that she could not be wrong - my wickedness, too, must be something marvelous ! My mother's death struck me as an affront of destiny - a thing like that could not happen to me - either to her or to me ! In the middle of my chest I felt the thousand-year old cedar of Lebanon of vengeance reach out its gigantic branches. With my teeth clenched with weeping, I swore to myself that I would snatch my mother from death and destiny with the swords of light that some day would savagely gleam around my glorious name !"

The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, p. 152.

~~~

Dalí was sixteen years old when his mother died of breast cancer.

~~~


Salvador Dalí. The City of Drawers. Study for The Anthropomorphic Cabinet. 1936.

~~~

My first aggression was perpetrated on a boy of thirteen. I had been watching him for some time stupidly eating a large piece of bread with some chocolate - a mouthful of bread, a mouthful of chocolate. These alternate, almost mechanical gestures, appeared to me to reveal a profound lack of intelligence. Moreover, he was ugly, and the chocolate he was eating, which was of atrocious quality, inspired me with an immense contempt for its consumer. I approached the boy furtively, pretending to be absorbed in the reading of a book by Prince Kropotkin which I always carried with me on my walks. My victim saw me coming, but he had no suspicions of me and continued to devour his bread and his chocolate while looking in another direction. I sized him up and planned what I was going to do, indulging at leasure in the great luxury of premeditation as I approached him. After having observed his horrible, idiotic, uncouth manner of eating, and especially of swallowing, I slapped him hard right in the face, making his bread and chocolate fly high in the air. After which I dashed off in a frenzied flight as fast as my legs could carry me. It took the lad a long time to realize what had happened to him, and when he understood it and tried to run after me I was already so far away that he immediately abandoned his angry impulse to dash after me. I saw him stoop down and pick up his piece of bread and his chocolate.

My unpunished success immediately caused such acts of aggression to assume the endemic character of a real vice which I could no longer forego. I would be on the lookout for every propitious occasion to commit similar acts, and I grew more and more reckless. Soon I noticed that the sympathetic or antipathetic character of my victims no longer played an essential role, and that my pleasure arose solely from the anguish inherent in the execution and the vicissitudes of the assault itself."

The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, p.120.

~~~

My Regards.

[paul emmett]

[I
(...)

My first aggression was perpetrated on a boy of thirteen. I had been watching him for some time stupidly eating a large piece of bread with some chocolate - a mouthful of bread, a mouthful of chocolate. These alternate, almost mechanical gestures, appeared to me to reveal a profound lack of intelligence. Moreover, he was ugly, and the chocolate he was eating, which was of atrocious quality, inspired me with an immense contempt for its consumer. I approached the boy furtively, pretending to be absorbed in the reading of a book by Prince Kropotkin which I always carried with me on my walks. My victim saw me coming, but he had no suspicions of me and continued to devour his bread and his chocolate while looking in another direction. I sized him up and planned what I was going to do, indulging at leasure in the great luxury of premeditation as I approached him. After having observed his horrible, idiotic, uncouth manner of eating, and especially of swallowing, I slapped him hard right in the face, making his bread and chocolate fly high in the air. After which I dashed off in a frenzied flight as fast as my legs could carry me. It took the lad a long time to realize what had happened to him, and when he understood it and tried to run after me I was already so far away that he immediately abandoned his angry impulse to dash after me. I saw him stoop down and pick up his piece of bread and his chocolate.

My unpunished success immediately caused such acts of aggression to assume the endemic character of a real vice which I could no longer forego. I would be on the lookout for every propitious occasion to commit similar acts, and I grew more and more reckless. Soon I noticed that the sympathetic or antipathetic character of my victims no longer played an essential role, and that my pleasure arose solely from the anguish inherent in the execution and the vicissitudes of the assault itself." [/I]

The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, p. 25, p.120.

My Regards.

Hi Pilgrim. I think that the potential parallels between Dali and JTR are both numerous and compelling. I like the redemptive "swords of light" in your last post. I would like to hear what you have to say about them.

I would also like to talk about what could initially seem like random violence--"the sympathetic or antipathetic character of my victims no longer played an essential role." I would rather look at images like the "atrocious" chocolate
and the "horrible, idiotic, uncouth manner of eating, and espescially of swallowing," and the way motives here, far from blatant in the 1st "slapping" become even more murky with subsequent "slappings."

What do you think about Holy Mother?

[paul emmett]

I don't think the womb was necessarily prioritised, Paul, because it, and the bladder, are the only portable organs in a woman's lower abdomen. After Jack cut open his victims' abdominal walls he was left with comparatively little choice of "trophy". He went further in Mitre Square, of course, but then one has to find a specific "misogynistic" connotation for the excision of a kidney and a section of descending colon. If there is, I can't think of it.

Hello, Sam.

But in your previous post you mentioned pancreas, spleen and "a host of other 'unisex' organs." Bond's report notes spleen and liver. Besides these choices, another reason I say the uterus is prioritized is that Jack, clearly, didn't necessarily have to dig for the trophy: it could have been nose, or EARS--or as was intimated above, the MALICE trophy, hair. Also I want to stress that I had talked about the tropy as an idealization of the feminine, not as misogynistic. Also, I see the kidney as important in conjunction with the womb. The descending colon? I was hoping you would help me with that.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul,

Also, I see the kidney as important in conjunction with the womb.

There's no connection between those organs, whether anatomically, physiologically or symbolically speaking. Regarding the evisceration of Kelly, Bond stated that "the entire abdominal cavity was emptied of its viscera", so we're talking more than just spleen and liver. I mentioned the descending colon because this was removed and placed by Eddowes' side in Mitre Square, presumably with no misogynistic implications attached to it - or the rest of the large intestine for that matter

[paul emmett]

Hi Paul,There's no connection between those organs, whether anatomically, physiologically or symbolically speaking. Regarding the evisceration of Kelly, Bond stated that "the entire abdominal cavity was emptied of its viscera", so we're talking more than just spleen and liver. I mentioned the descending colon because this was removed and placed by Eddowes' side in Mitre Square, presumably with no misogynistic implications attached to it - or the rest of the large intestine for that matter

Hi, Sam. I know. THAT is what I said. There were numeruos organs that Jack could choose from. That is why I--and not you--said he prioritized the uterus. And I knew why you mentioned the descending colon. I "rementioned" it cuz I did not have a symbolic interpretation at the ready. You know how subjective those symbols can be. That is why the one, the only, word I disagree with in your above post is "symbolically." We of course know that a given individual, say JTR, COULD, for whatever reasons, make a symbolic association between kidney and womb.

On the other hand I love your "attached to it."

And, by the by, could I ask you if the MJK being pregnant myth started with Stewart's JTR: A NEW THEORY? Was there any hint of it before this book from 1939??

[Sam Flynn]

Hi, Sam. I know. THAT is what I said. There were numeruos organs that Jack could choose from. That is why I--and not you--said he prioritized the uterus.

I'm much less confident of that than you, Paul, given his removal of the kidney with Eddowes, or (if Jack it was, and I have little serious doubt) his removal of practically every internal organ in the case of Kelly. There are, I feel, more than reasonable grounds to believe that Jack exploited his chances to extract whatever he could from his victims' bodies, rather than targeting the uterus per se.

[Blackkat]

Not that it matters much in this case, but the chinese (asian lands) have always associated the Kidney's with the womb.

[Blackkat]

Here's a little on chinese medicine pertaining to the Kidney and Kidney Deficiency.

Stabilizing the Womb
Repetitive miscarriage is another obstacle that prospective parents can face. The woman may have no problem getting pregnant, but maintaining the pregnancy poses a challenge. Miscarriage can be emotionally damaging to the point that future attempts to bear children are fraught with anxiety or a predetermined attitude of failure. Acupuncture and herbal medicine can usually help women trapped in this traumatic cycle. There are a variety of causes for this imbalance, although internal weakness related to the kidneys is often a factor. Kidney deficiency suggests many of the symptoms mentioned in the preceding paragraphs. Anxiety is typically related to the ‘yin’ aspect of the kidneys which is related to calmness, coolness, stillness, etc. When the yin is deficient, the body feels too hot, the mind becomes tense, and thoughts are rapid and edgy. This can easily lead to a ‘restless fetus’ in which yin deficiency affects the stability of the womb due to anxiety and emotional tension. Conversely, the ‘yang aspect of the kidneys can also factor into frequent miscarriage. In this case, the woman is more likely to feel depression, coldness, listlessness, low back pain, and muscle weakness. Kidney yang deficiency indicates that the woman’s deepest reservoir of energy is insufficient to properly house and nourish a growing fetus. Both of these scenarios are very treatable. With kidney yin deficiency, the herbal formula ‘rehmannia 6’ is commonly prescribed to nourish the yin, dispel anxiety, and calm the fetus. Kidney yang deficiency is treated with ‘rehmannia 8’ to warm and fortify the yang and generally strengthen the woman’s reproductive capacities. Spleen deficiency is commonly implicated in frequent miscarriage. In Chinese medicine, the spleen consolidates the blood, meaning that blood is properly restrained from leaking inappropriately. Occasional or frequent spotting of pale blood during pregnancy is likely a sign of this pattern. Many digestive disturbances, sugar craving, low energy, bloating, worry, and fatigue are also signs of a weak spleen. There are wonderful herbal formulas for this condition such as dang gui and gelatin (dang gui e jiao tang) to consolidate the blood and stabilize the womb. Shepherd’s purse is also an effective herb to stop bleeding and protect the fetus. The last commonly seen pattern is liver stagnation/ depressive heat. In this pattern, stress and emotional tension are the primary causes of miscarriage. Anger, irritability, and frustration have to be metabolized by the liver which often creates toxic heat through the mid and lower abdominal organs. This heat travels directly to the womb and creates instability. High blood pressure and jaundice are commonly exhibited by the mother in this scenario. She tends to have a history of PMS, menstrual cramping, a high stress level, and a propensity toward anger. Liver stagnation responds well to acupuncture and herbal formulas like ‘free and easy wanderer’ (xiao yao wan).

By - Kevin Doherty, L.Ac., MS
Whole article with more information is at:
http://www.havinghealthnow.com/Infertility.htm

For more on the womb or birth and what the Kidney governs go here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SWE...T6c3tTt-QuiNN4

[caz]

Hi All,

Very interesting thread - shame to see it come to a halt so soon, even though I'm one of those annoying people who think 'mother' could have had everything, something or nothing to do with Jack's repeat offending, victim choice and organ selection, and that we won't have a clue whether it's everything, something or nothing until we know who he was. Even then we might learn precious little about his mum, his relationship with her, or his mental state.

I hope Pilgrim will be reading this because a certain Dr Harold Shipman, a drug addict who murdered hundreds of his patients over many years by injecting them with morphine he had acquired illicitly, watched his own mother die from lung cancer when he was 17. I remember it being suggested that he may have been repeating, over and over again, the experience of seeing his dying mother being injected with morphine to ease her suffering.

Obviously, millions of youngsters have to watch their mother, or other loved ones, suffering and dying, and don't go on to harm another living soul, while many serial offenders never have to experience such a traumatic event before exercising their murderous urges (and may even start by causing a close relative's illness or death, rather than witnessing it). So there must be other factors present in an offender's case, which can presumably cause the same disastrous overreaction to any negative experience - or perceived as negative - whether it's birth itself and his expulsion from the warmth and safety of the womb; his mother dying on him too early; his father kicking the cat, or his teacher telling him to sit up straight and stop picking his nose.

The difficulty is that serial killers are human beings too, whether we like it or not, and no human being who survives childhood is blessed with a completely blissful and trauma-free journey to adulthood, although the definition of 'trauma' changes from one person to the next, depending on how sensitive they are I guess. So you are back to square one before you start to analyse an unknown killer's crimes in the hope of identifying the nature of the trauma which triggered a 'kill' response in him, or of identifying potential suspects accordingly. I suspect that any trauma would have done, and that the 'kill' response was just waiting for a suitable one to come along and activate it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Blackkat]

Excellent post Caz - welcome back also.

I agree with what you said. ya know there was actually some research being done on the brain's of seriel killers and they thought that something biologically was different. Perhaps genetically different. Here is part of an article:

A startling amount of criminals on death row have been clinically diagnosed with brain disorders. A recent study has demonstrated that 20 out of 31 confessed killers are diagnosed as mentally ill. Out of that 20, 64% have frontal lobe abnormalities. (1) A thorough study of the profiles of many serial killers shows that many of them had suffered sever head injuries (to the frontal lobe) when they were children. To discover why damage to the frontal lobe could be a cause of serial killing, one must look at the function of the frontal lobe of the brain.

The frontal lobe is located in the most anterior part of the brain hemispheres. It is considered responsible for much of the behavior that makes possible stable and adequate social relations. Self-control, planning, judgment, the balance of individual versus social needs, and many other essential functions underlying effective social intercourse are mediated by the frontal structures of the brain. (3) Antonio and Anna Damasio, two noted Portuguese neurologists and researchers working in the University of Iowa, have been investigating in the last decade the neurological basis of psychopathy. They have shown that individuals who had undergone damage to the ventromedial frontal cortex (and who had normal personalities before the damage) developed abnormal social conduct, leading to negative personal consequences. Among other things, they presented inadequate decision-making and planning abilities, which are known to be processed by the frontal lobe of the brain. (5) For a long time now, neuroscientists have known that lesions to this part of the brain lead to severe deficits in all these behaviors. The inordinate use of prefrontal lobotomy as a therapeutic tool by surgeons for many mental diseases in the 40s and 50s, provided researchers with enough data to implicate the frontal brain in the genesis of dissocial and antisocial personalities. (6) Through this information one can posit that the frontal lobe acts as a conscience.

An example of a serial killer that had suffered sever injury to his frontal lobe is Albert Fish, better known as the Brooklyn Vampire. At the age of seven he had a severe fall off a cherry tree which caused a head injury from which he would have permanent problems with, such as headaches and dizzy spells. (2) After his fall he began to display many violent tendencies, including an interest in sadomasochistic activities. At the age of twenty he killed his fist victim, a twelve-year-old neighbor by the name of Gracie whom he cannibalized. (2) It would appear that a damaged frontal lobe is a prime suspect in the causation of serial killing. However, if you look closer this argument flows over to prove that genetics is the main cause of serial killing. Could it be the case that we are all genetically encoded to become serial killers, and the frontal lobe is the proverbial muzzle that stops us from acting on our tendencies? All of us have at one point or another imagined killing a person because they displayed tendencies that we did not like. None of us went out and killed them in a ritualized manner.


Full article here:http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1698

So who knows maybe this is that "something else" or other thing that you are talking about. I haven't went around killing people and I've had over 29 people around me pass on since 1993. Hardly trauma free.