Murder Dates and Times

[Sam Flynn]

I think he was indeed familiar with anatomy and the Hospital's proximity to the Polly Nichols scene supports this.

The fact that Eddowes was killed near a Synagogue doesn't increase the likelihood that her killer was a rabbi. Anyhoo... geographical locations/landmarks, and questions of anatomical skill, have nothing to do with the times and dates of the murders, so best leave that discussion there

[Mitch Rowe]

The reason may not have anything to do with what we are familiar with. Maybe JTR thought it would be easier on those nights for some reason? Maybe the police were more pre-occupied thereby giving the Ripper more chance to succeed?

But then again.. Could have been a statistic.

[Christine]

It could also reflect someone else's schedule, say for example he lived with a family of observant Jews and worked in their family shop but did not himself feel the need to stay in Friday nights or early Saturday mornings.

Add in the fact that he doubtless tried to entrap more women than he actually killed and you can fit in just about any scenario, unfortunately.

[RonnieKray]

Unortunatley it appears that theory is really the best we can arrive at and it falls down on many hundreds of opinions and interpretations of the facts.

I do feel the time and dates are significant however it is a dead end in that we will never know for real. It is a pity the records are so poorly kept and so much cnnot be agreed upon.

[Roy Corduroy]

We put ourselves in a box if we think "regularly employed man."

Taking a page from Odell, both Chaim Bermant and Charles Van Onselen wondered aloud if the killings were tied to Jewish holidays, with a mad maniac "cleansing" the world according to ancient precepts. There was a pattern to the dates at first, but it didn't continue.

As it stands, Jack was clearly a creature of the night...

An apt observation, Don (the Supe).

Roy

[richardnunweek]

Hi Roy,
Yes but the pattern of dates did continue, I am not about to repeat the thirty nine theory here, but just use the dates of the C5.
Polly Nichols 31st of the 8th month=39
Annie Chapman killed on the 8th of september 31+8 =39
Eddowes/Stride killed on the 30th of the 9th month.
The month of october was free of more killings, however the next date [ millers court ] occured on the same pattern ie.. 30+9 [ Eddowes/stride30th , kelly 9th november]
I am not alone in suggesting most serial killers work to a pattern, either in choice of victim, or displaying of the victims, and yes the dates of the murders.
Regards Richard.

[RonnieKray]

Hi Richard,

That is a very interesting theory that I have not heard before. A very striking co-incidence if not by design.

Do you have any thoughts as to why 39 should be important to the killer?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ronnie.
The number 'Thirty nine' has many meanings, it has significance in Masonic ritual, also it has religious meaning involving the striking of christ and Roman policy.
The number thirty nine is not only intresting in the coincidental factor, but when added to other 39s in the Ripper case, become fascinating.
As you are intrested[ many see it as a absurd] try a few more.
The victims names when their letters are counted, make thirty nine, ie Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Long liz, Eddowes, Kelly, [ Stride was known as that in the area].
Coincedence possibly?
There were two letters written sent to the police/press refering to that number'I live at number 39 Cutler street, and i wish to give myself up' , and another one sent refering to hanbury street , with the number 39 on it.
Also over the main entrance to the Victoria home, wher three intresting players in the case resided at the same time that is , Hutchinson, Daniel Barnet, and the strange Joseph fleming, you can cllearly see 39-41 Commercial street,
Also where did the last victim life?
26 Dorset street ..room 13 =39
What day did Barnett move out into lodgings.
Answer one calander month after the double event,30th october. and when did Mary die the 9th.
And to cap it all we must not forget the thirty nine stab wounds that the 39 year old Tabram endured.
The regulars on this site are now giving massive sighs..... however its all there coincidence or not.
Regards Richard.

[Roy Corduroy]

The 39 theory. Had not heard of that, Richard. Thank you.

Here is an except from London’s East End, Point of Arrival by Chaim Bermant, New York, 1975

…some Jewish observers must have followed the pattern of murders with unease, for there was something significant about their incidence. The first murder took place on 7 August, the second on 31 August, the third on 7 September, the fourth and fifth on 30 September.

7 August coincided with the eve of the first Ellul, the month preceding the Jewish New Year and the Ten Days of Penitence, and, as such, it has been traditionally treated as a month of supplication and penitence. The doom-laden sound of the Shofar (ram’s horn) is heard during the morning service to warn of the approach of the Day of Judgement (which is another name for the New Year). A crazed fanatic, who may have consorted with prostitutes and was obsessed with his sense of guilt, might have ventured out on the eve of Ellul on his deadly mission. There is nothing in Jewish law to sanction such an act and everything to condemn it, but an insane man needs no sanctions.

31 August coincided with the 24th of Ellul, a point in the month when the pious rise at dawn to say Selichot, special penitential prayers on the immediate approach of the New Year. They are days of deep contrition and the worshipper, with clenched fist against his heart, goes through a prolonged confessional:

We have trespassed, we have betrayed, we have robbed, we have slandered, we have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, we have acted presumptuously, we have committed violence, we have framed falsehood…

And so on through every conceivable form of trespass. To a sane man it was a means of correction, but to an insane man…?

The following week passed without incident.

The New Year and the Day of Atonement, which follows ten days later, are the most sacred days of the Jewish calendar and are known together as the Solemn Days. The New Year celebrations continue over two days. The first day fell on 6 September, and it passed quietly, as did the second, but some hours after the close of the evening service, on 7 September, Annie Chapman was found in Hanbury Street…

A dreadful pattern was emerging and it seemed as if a Jew, overwhelmed by perverted religious passions, had taken it upon himself to act as an avenging angel in the name of the Lord.

Had the murder at the close of New Year's Day been followed by another on the most solemn day of all, the Day of Atonement, the picture would have been complete, and there would have been little doubt that Jack the Ripper was a Jew. ...

The Day of Atonement came and went without incident.

End Quote. As Mr. Bermant points out, the apparent pattern stopped. The author does not advocate any particular suspect theory, but his is the most succinct rendition of the above scenario.

Roy

[perrymason]

Although it would seem the only thing that some can conclude about Jack based on his attributed kill dates is that he killed "at night"...its not likely a profile trait. Annie was killed at daybreak by the way...and Mary's TOD may have been incorrecly estimated...allowing for a possibility that she was killed in daylight as well.

So theres potentially 40% of The Canonical Group that may not have been killed in complete darkness.

If the man works from noon until midnight....he can kill and sleep before his next shift...if the man kills on weekends or holidays attached to a weekend, he may not have had to work the following day. And when a murder "streak includes not one Weeknight kill ever...outside the above parameters...not one kill from no later than the 9th of the month until at least the 30th of the same month, and there are no attempted attacks during those "quiet" times that were assumed by the authorities to be failed "Jack" attacks...you have substance for a pattern and for restricted access to the area in the down times.

If he doesn't kill ever during that monthly period...in any month he killed in, ...then logically one answer is he couldn't.

Although I'm quite sure a post will follow telling us what Jack likely does regardless of the evidence....so stay tuned.

Best regards.

[RonnieKray]

he he Michael I suspect you are right.....so much eveidence and interpretation of it and also a lot of people add their own possibilities in there as well.

Your points are interesting.

[Sam Flynn]

If he doesn't kill ever during that monthly period...in any month he killed in, ...then logically one answer is he couldn't.

The other logical answers are:

He simply failed to find a suitable opportunity;
He didn't feel like killing;
He was lying low.

None of the above 3 are mutually exclusive, and in fact you can add "he couldn't" to the list, too. All of which boils down to:

"Jack went out on some nights, intending to kill, but only succeeding on a few occasions - most of the time, he never found a suitable opportunity. On some nights, Jack couldn't go out - for domestic/health reasons, or perhaps because of work commitments. At other times he didn't feel the urge to go out anyway."

If you substitute "Jack" with "I" and "kill" with "going to the pub", you'll find that the above rather mundane state of affairs applies in everyday life. Now, a person might end up in a position where they can't go to the pub - illness, abstinence, being banned by the landlord etc - but, more often than not, their absence from a pub at any given time could be down to any one, or a combination, of the above.

In short, there are several eminently non-mysterious reasons which could explain why Jack only succeeded in killing on the "canonical" nights, and there's no reason on earth to suppose that there was only ONE consistent reason for it.

[perrymason]

The other logical answers are:

He simply failed to find a suitable opportunity;
He didn't feel like killing;
He was lying low.

None of the above 3 are mutually exclusive, and in fact you can add "he couldn't" to the list, too. All of which boils down to:

"Jack went out on some nights, intending to kill, but only succeeding on a few occasions - most of the time, he never found a suitable opportunity. On some nights, Jack couldn't go out - for domestic/health reasons, or perhaps because of work commitments. At other times he didn't feel the urge to go out anyway."

If you substitute "Jack" with "I" and "kill" with "going to the pub", you'll find that the above rather mundane state of affairs applies in everyday life. Now, a person might end up in a position where they can't go to the pub - illness, abstinence, being banned by the landlord etc - but, more often than not, their absence from a pub at any given time could be down to any one, or a combination, of the above.

In short, there are several eminently non-mysterious reasons which could explain why Jack only succeeded in killing on the "canonical" nights, and there's no reason on earth to suppose that there was only ONE consistent reason for it.

As I said it was one possible explanation...and it would be supportable based only on knowing when his attributed kills took place,...the part I emboldened in your post Sam, are all subjective suppositions ...unlike the provable abstinence of "Ripper" murders during a consistent period of days during a month.

Sure...he may have taken ill too....but does that explain a fixed 10 day kill window either? He only gets sick on the days he doesn't usually kill anyway?

You can say that the dates and that fixed 10 day kill window are meaningless if you like,....but I think evidence of potential pattern is never meaningless myself.

And one very logical explanation for them not finding him in between kills... is that he wasn't where they were looking for him during those periods.

Cheers Gareth.

[diana]

Phases of Moon

For what its worth:

Nichols 8/31 -- half moon on 8/29; moonless on 9/6 waning crescent

Chapman 9/8/88 -- moonless on 9/6; half moon on 9/12 waxing crescent

Stride/Eddowes 9/30--half moon 9/28; moonless on 10/5 waning crescent

Kelly 11/9--moonless 11/4; half moon Nov 10 waxing crescent

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/index.html?year=1888&country=9

Each time there was a little moonlight but not a lot.

[Ally]

Annie Chapman killed on the 8th of september 31+8 =39

What?? How exactly does the 8th of september which is 8 and 9 add up to 31+8 = 39??

The month of october was free of more killings, however the next date [ millers court ] occured on the same pattern ie.. 30+9 [ Eddowes/stride30th , kelly 9th november]

Uh..no. If the patterns of the dates were relevant, then kelly should have been killed on Nov 28th, which she was not.



So there are only 2 dates where the month and the day add up to 39 and if you commit an act roughly one month apart from each other, that's not exactly a coincidence beyond imagining. But I understand that people who want to see patterns have to STREEEETCH to make those patterns emerge sometimes.