Is Ripperology murder porn?

[truebluedub]

Ah, the joys of having a shortened name that could be either masculine or feminine (I'm a bloke).
On where Deborah Cameron discussed ripperology see page 4 of this thread. She also wrote about it in an article called 'still going' which is on JSTOR if you have access to that. (or it could be Caputi but I'm fairly certain it's Cameron).

Chris(topher) Lowe

[Mykeru]

OK, why not have a thread like this. As far as I can see suggestions that Ripperology is murder porn (or gorenography) is based mainly on ideology e.g. Deborah Cameron arguing from a feminist perspective. What does everybody else think.

Chris Lowe

How, precisely, does Deborah Cameron argue this? Yes, I know I could Google it, but I'm not the one bringing up the conclusion.

Just off the top of my head I would guess it's a sort of jaded, post-modernist argument: That if a bunch of guys (let's ignore the female, ostensibly non-lesbian female Ripperologists) are interested in the historical mystery involving the murder of women it must be because they get off on it.

Which, of course, tells us a lot about the person making that sort of assumption.

My interest, as a male suspected of perversion, is anything but an erotic response to the mutilations. I do have much sensitivity and sympathy for the victims, but not only because they were murdered in a horrible way, but because their entire lives were tough propositions of poverty, alcoholism and despair.

As an alcoholic in recovery myself, the often overlooked aspect of alcoholism in the Ripper case resonates for me. Think of Mary Kelly. One of the last people to see her alive recounted that she said she had the "horrors of drink" upon her. To me, that doesn't mean she had a hangover, but was experiencing alcohol withdrawal, which is a horrible, potentially fatal condition that would spur a woman to prostitution and, in her case, was a major contributing factor to her decline and death. She threw up some beer she had in the morning. Alcoholics in withdrawal often vomit the day's first medicinal drink.

Think of the life of a woman in London, circa 1888 burdened by the trifecta of poverty, alcoholism and prostitution. Where's the porn?

I'm not even interested in the identity of Jack the Ripper. I assume none of the canonical subjects were the Ripper. He was probably an unknown, unmourned East-end local who died in a doss house, forever lost to history.

What interests me about Ripperology is that the case provides window into the class-conscious 19th Century, the social effects and biases towards poverty and alcoholism, rampant anti-antisemitism, sexism and xenophobia, the attitudes and lives of a cross-section of people, their fears and prejudices and a plethora of arcane information that would be lost were it not documented around a particularly brutal and then unique series of murders.

If I wanted "murder porn" the circumspect written accounts of the Whitechapel murders, along with a few sketches, grainy photos and hoax poison pen letters, is a pretty poor source for that. Besides, I find it hard to imagine Don Rumbelow (who was a detective, should that be suspect too? Police get the best "murder porn") and Paul Begg, for example, are just thinly veiled Larry Flynts of "murder porn".

[Suzi]

Exactly.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
But OK there are a lot of us about who have a house full of books containing said images I guess - Not that many have people around to say 'Ere 'ave a look at this one'- mind you they're probably about- disturbingly...............

[Fisherman]

...except for the fact that a lot of the nitwits who have resorted to killing women have been fervent collectors of this very kind of material. To them, it is a turn-on. To you and me, hopefully not.
But it can always be reasoned that there are not only armchair detectives out there - there are armchair killers too ...

The best,
Fisherman

[John Bennett]

Why would you think there was anything pornographic or even sexually interesting about the black and white photos of women who were murdered 120 years ago?

Exactly.

[Nothing to see]

Why would you think there was anything pornographic or even sexually interesting about the black and white photos of women who were murdered 120 years ago?

If you do, well..

[Suzi]

Hi all-

This is beginning to sound like a 'Pssssssst- wanna see some Ripperporn thread'!!!...... As Rob Mc C says- THE photos are purely factual evidence of the terrible crimes, and must of course be viewed as such, and treated as research. (They have of course been the cause of much contention on Casebook and Forums with people discussing aspects various- this does not constitute any form of prurient interest)...AND if anyone's taken a long hard look at the photographs in the interest of fantastic research and results- it's Rob!!

Anyone who takes any form of pleasure from viewing these sad,very real and disturbing images of very real women- has no place on this or any other forum concerning the murders of 1888.

Suz x

Sadly the women portrayed would have had not the slightest idea that they would have become 'famous', or even remembered- least of all from their mortuary photographs.

Hardly 'Hello' is it!

[John Bennett]

I think we, in a nutshell, are looking at 'taboos', things that are intended to be forbidden (but obviously aren't). And the fact that people want to see what they're not meant to see is common.

Remember the Video Nasty hoo-hah in the early 1980s? Certain videos were banned for their violent and sexual content - they were notorious in the press and as a result people wanted to watch them! I can remember friends saying they'd got hold of pirate copies of such-and-such a film and it was almost a badge of honour to have seen them.

That said, most of those films are now freely available, as are those with hard-core sex (another no-no in this country until fairly recently).

Oh, the times they are a changin'! Whether it's for better or worse, I can't say.

[RJM]

Deborah Cameron says in the article above: " Those who glorify the criminal should be forced to remember the victims -"

This type of hypocrisy is galling. She mentions "Jack the Ripper" twenty times or more, as well as some other notorious murderers by name, yet she fails to pass on the names of any victims of the Whitechapel murderer or any victims from the killers cited in the article. I can honestly say that I have never lost focus on Martha, Polly, Annie, Liz, Kate, Mary, nor the other women who lost their life during that period, including three nameless torso victims.

I've spent years looking at the photographs, and have even written a book on the subject. I take no pleasure in looking at them but they are a study tool, and the only piece of forensic evidence left in the case after more than 120 years.

John Bennett's post about "murder buzz" being a more accurate phrase is bang on the money. And thanks to you as well Judy, for your passion and wisdom.

Robert

p.s. The Four Bells? At least get your facts straight about the pub name. Jack the Ripper as a name of a pub I agree was tacky and uncalled for. Despite the name change, however, the Ripper ephemera was still part of the pub until just recently. Was that any more degrading than the strippers?

[Khanada]

1. I'm not seeing much of that romanticized Jack in Ripperology. Quite the opposite.

2. I don't see this as being about male oppression of women. I see the ultimate motive as being mental illness and the victims as being vulnerable because of social inequality that goes beyond gender. Women who do such massively evil things are rare, and women who act without a male accomplice even rarer, but they do exist. And male victims of serial killers are pretty common.

I agree completely.

Then we have Mrs Fenwick of 1888... I do hate to cast aspersions about nice, deceased English ladies, but I cannot help but think that her rather graphic little list may just indicate that she might have been into "murder porn"... Not because I doubt her words per se, but because she seems to have taken such a very thorough approach into making her list...

I guess that when I contemplate the definition of "murder porn", I tend to come up with trashy slasher films, and possibly things like Hammer's Hands of the Ripper (although I confess I've never seen that one). These are things that are deliberately intended to be titilating. This isn't to say that you couldn't find an example of that kind of situation within Ripperology as a whole, but that still doesn't make all of Ripperology into nothing but "murder porn". (I'm not even sure that the ramblings of the infamous PC qualify as "titilating", let alone the books that are generally well thought of here at Casebook.)

[protohistorian]

1. I'm not seeing much of that romanticized Jack in Ripperology. Quite the opposite.

2. I don't see this as being about male oppression of women. I see the ultimate motive as being mental illness and the victims as being vulnerable because of social inequality that goes beyond gender. Women who do such massively evil things are rare, and women who act without a male accomplice even rarer, but they do exist. And male victims of serial killers are pretty common.

Well spoken!

Its like "Andelusian Dogs" in real life....I agree Dave.
A show at the local gallery, Art in Real Life, by Salvador Dali.

But your point is good...this "crime spree", the photos and the sketches are vulgar and offensive and insensible to most sane people, but it is nonetheless captivating in its own way.

Its not the craning of a neck to see the car crash youre slowing passing....its more like squinting at a glaring spectacle to see something of form inside it.

All the best Dave

[protohistorian]

"Hey Jude....dont make it bad....."

Ok humor aside...I think Judy that anyone that spends inordinate time looking at crime scene or morgue photos may well be seeking a similar fix. For myself, its always been and will always be the best opportunity to amateur sleuth there is. Its the Sherlock era...and a Holmesian predicament...with a cast of characters like no other. I think someone has to make a visual presentation of this "event" digitally....like Beowolf was a year or so ago. And match the characters to the photos or sketches. Might be a better mystery if its portrayed with less gore than in real life.

But what this is, is an addiction. I recognize it with myself, and there are members here that have studied avidly for decades.

I think its more like a great single malt than porn.

Cheers Judy.

If it is porn they are doing wrong! The breast have holes in them or there by the shoulder, it's like Picasso porn, ugggh creeped myself out on that one.

[Bailey]

"All we know is that Jack must have been a man."

Why? Not at all biased there are we? The overtly Dworkinist slant aside, that was a good read, with some valid points. Thanks for posting, TBD.

B.

[Christine]

1. I'm not seeing much of that romanticized Jack in Ripperology. Quite the opposite.

2. I don't see this as being about male oppression of women. I see the ultimate motive as being mental illness and the victims as being vulnerable because of social inequality that goes beyond gender. Women who do such massively evil things are rare, and women who act without a male accomplice even rarer, but they do exist. And male victims of serial killers are pretty common.