Is Ripperology murder porn?

[truebluedub]

I scanned these from Femicide (1992) edited by Radford and Russell.

[kensei]

The point is that fiction, to suceed in its primary purpose of being entertaining, requires a certain amount of structure, and real life doesn't happen in three acts with a tidy conclusion. The most obvious issue with a true life Ripper film would be that there is no one character that could be the protagonist and be present throughout the entire film - unless you pick a suspect, the closest you'd get is Abberline, which is why he is so often the focus. This is also why in films the girls always know each other, because otherwise they're just random new characters turning up when it's time to die.

If you want an accurate dramatic film on the Ripper... well, the best yu're ever going to get is a less innaccurate one, because real life tends to be poor drama. What you want is a documentary

B

Some further thoughts on what a good Ripper movie would be like, without being lurid for the sake of lurid. I really do think it could be done. It's true, some dramatic license would be absolutely necessary since there are so many details we don't know. Showing the murders would have to involve imagined conversation between the killer & victims, supplemented by the few bits that were actually overheard by witnesses. It would take some doing to find a voice for Jack that could be almost anyone, while never showing his face. He would be wearing the standard dark overcoat and peaked cap. The early murders would be shown very quickly- the one at the lake in "Zodiac" comes to mind, where once the stabbing begins, even though you see the knife going in it is over so quickly that you are left with only a few seconds of intense imagery burned into your brain, and really no blood and gore at all.

I invision the first scene being Polly Nicholls being turned away from the lodging house, giving the line about her jolly bonnett and then meeting the Ripper. A scene of Martha Tabram could be shown in flashback as police compare her to Polly.

Annie's scene- pretty straightforward, with some emphasis on how poor her health was and how she wasn't long for the world anyway. She was such a sad character.

I invision a long montage-type sequence for the Double Event, with Liz and Kate bumping shoulders in a crowd during the day and having a quick exchange, then flipping back and forth between them on through the night until they each meet their fates. "You would say anything but your prayers" would be a powerful line, and the Schwartz and Diemschutz incidents would be quite powerful. Kate's drunken antics and the ver batim account of her in the jailhouse would make for some comic relief in the midst of it all, and then the quick downward spiral into Mitre Square, a quick flash of Kate's gutted body no more than a three seconds long. Combine it with the Ripper on the run, whipping out his chalk in Goulston Street as cops are everywhere, and that would be one gripping and suspenseful twenty minutes of film. I know many of those details are disputed, but they are genuine details as opposed to total fiction. In the same way, I think the "Dear Boss" letter, its followup postcard, and the note with the Lusk kidney should be presented as if they did come from the killer. Let the naysayers have their say, but those are things that did happen and presenting them in that way would be the easiest way to introduce them to the audience. Perhaps a tag line at the end of the movie could explain the items of evidence that are in dispute.

No victim would appear in the film until it was time for her part. Miller's Court would be the part most remembered, with the crime scene photos reproduced exactly, the worst gore saved for this ultimate moment. The actress playing Mary Jane would have to be very carefully chosen, prettier than the others but not glamorous, no Lysette Anthony or Heather Gramm. How the murder would be depicted I'm totally up in the air about. Too much controversy. Perhaps a police interview scene with Joe Barnett could provide a quick rundown of her life story.

I think that Bailey is right about Abberline being the best suited character to be the star of the film, and why not? He was the lead detective, and he should be played by a known star. Who? I have no idea. Though the 1988 movie had its problems, I think Michael Caine was very well suited for the part at the time he did it, though he should have grown the facial hair, which Johnny Depp did though he was wrong in every other way. Who should do it today? Any suggestions?

Warren, Lusk, Pizer, maybe even Mary Kelly- these are parts that should be played by actors you've seen before but who aren't huge stars. Most other roles should be played by unknowns. And of course, the movie would end without a solution and a "good guys lose" kind of feeling. The audience would leave feeling depressed, but educated as to the true facts with only a little embellishment.

Sorry to take up so much space with this, but I love movies and it's something I've been passionate about ever since I got interested in the Ripper case.

[Nothing to see]

This thread is about Jack's victim's photo's being porn.

How many apostrophes did I use?

I lost count.

Porn to turn me on? No. How could anyone find exciting or stimulating what Jack did to these women? Jack did. That's why he continued.

But any reasonable person wouldn't find these photos exciting.

[needler]

John...pound for pound kids are the most bloodthirsty of ghouls. You ought to hear them talk when they think no adults are near! And, as an illustration, but not one far-fetched, there is a scene in PARENTHOOD involving Steve Martin, a load of kids, balloon critters which eventually become "your innards", and the cheers of the kids as each description of a balloon creation is gorier than the one before.....NOT far from the truth, actually! Interesting that we adults turn our heads and cry "omigod" but the kids stare in fascination. Maybe we should just admit here and now that some of us are greatly bothered by the crime scene photos and some have become a bit jaded when viewing ANY crime scene photo. I freely admit to being in the second category; and no, I am NOT turned on by the pictures.....just fascinated that one "human" (whatever THAT is) can do this to another. If that makes me creepy, then so be it; just ask Ally or Stephen how creepy I really can be.............

Cheers to all and happy weekend.

[JSchmidt]

I think there is some thrill involved in viewing and hearing about grisly murders, why else would every occurrence of such an event get so much media attention? But it is not a sexual thrill, it is some kind of fear that we as humans like to indulge in for a few moments. Maybe a need for a short adrenaline surge?
What makes me chuckle a bit is the negative connotation the term "porn" has in this whole discussion. (Well, that negative use of porn happened in the tv show but it still paints our discussion.)
I don't think we have to argue that nobody involved in our discussions has shown a paraphilia towards gore and mutilations. I think we can safely argue that the stimulation is mental and based on the old "whodunnit" mystery.

[anna]

The concept is so rediculous....it doesn't even deserve a detailed
answer.

[John Bennett]

Murder Porn

If you use the word 'porn' to mean getting some sort of sexual arousal from murder, then I don't think anybody here could be accused of accessing Ripper material (basically anything to do with the mutilations, photographic or otherwise) with that end in mind - at least I hope not. I'd hope nobody does!

If we use the word 'porn' in the context of getting some sort of thrill or 'buzz' from accessing violent descriptions or photographs then I can honestly say that I have seen that happen.

When taking schoolchildren on JTR tours, I'm often startled as to how much they want to see the victim photographs. They are often disappointed that the Nichols, Tabram and Chapman photographs are merely head-and-shoulders 'portraits'. When it comes to the Mary Kelly crime scene pictures, they literally pore over it; some ask to see it again later.

I had a group recently where some said that they couldn't understand why anybody could do something so awful (even to somebody they really hated[!]) and yet, as the picture went round, lots of them were photographing the picture with their mobile phones! It made me feel a little uncomfortable, to be honest.

I've also had adults in groups where I've warned them about the images they will see and on mentioning that they get more unpleasant as the tour goes on, I've had people say "Ooh, I hope so".

Now, like you folks, I've viewed the MJK images enough times over the years to see and know them for what they are and I confess that I am now somewhat immune to the sheer horror depicted. But I am occasionally surprised by the thrill some people get from such imagery. This doesn't mean they're all going to become copycat serial killers, or even that they are getting sexual arousal from it, but there is, for some at least, something to be gained from viewing the 'unviewable'.

'Murder Porn' is probably a naive label - 'Murder Buzz' might be better.

[Bailey]

The point is that fiction, to suceed in its primary purpose of being entertaining, requires a certain amount of structure, and real life doesn't happen in three acts with a tidy conclusion. The most obvious issue with a true life Ripper film would be that there is no one character that could be the protagonist and be present throughout the entire film - unless you pick a suspect, the closest you'd get is Abberline, which is why he is so often the focus. This is also why in films the girls always know each other, because otherwise they're just random new characters turning up when it's time to die.

If you want an accurate dramatic film on the Ripper... well, the best yu're ever going to get is a less innaccurate one, because real life tends to be poor drama. What you want is a documentary

B.


(I do have half a screenplay on the hard drive somewhere, many years old and more innaccurate that I care to remember, I suspect)

[truebluedub]

Hi Needler,
closest thing you'd get to the sort of movie your suggesting is Barlow and Watts with everything cut except for the bits which are based on actual documents (i.e. cutting Barlow and Watts themselves and Joe Sickert). All you'd be left with are scenes representing the bodies being found, inquests, and the theories of police and public (including Warren's conspiracy theories and Anderson's suspect).
Quick guesstimate that would be about 2 hours.

Chris Lowe

[needler]

Protohistorian....it takes far more than that to upset me! Thanks for the apology, but none is required. Actually, I love the idea of serial pudding hurlers....is that to be included in the Highland games soon?? If not, it should be.

And to kensei, I apologize to YOU for not being more clear as to the kind of movie I have been searching for......a true to life Ripper movie. You are right that once in a while film makers manage to get a bit right, and ZODIAC (as a study in obsession, if nothing else) is close to being spot on. But a Ripper film?? NOT EVEN CLOSE. Someone once said to me that a real depiction of the whole story would be too much of a downer...........A DOWNER??? Jeez, guys, how much more of a downer can there be than ANY slash movie where the chicks come downstairs in a see-through nightie, asking "who's there???" (ME? I call 999 or 911 and lock myself in the bathroom where there are plenty of weapons......see: THE SHINING), then they run through the house, out into the yard, and back INTO the house where they are summarily invited to be the entree for a late supper. YUCK!!! Females depicted as brain dead and foolish victims, blood for its' own sake, knives, saws, and other what-have-you, a lonely country house with no phone....BAH, HUMBUG! Besides stupid stock characters, the plots are rubbish and the acting is abysmal. Now THAT is porn! And this brings me to my favorite question about why there are no accurate films about this series of killings........AS IT STANDS, WITH NO EMBELLISHMENT AND NO FANTASY, JUST WHAT THE HELL MAKES THIS A STORY WITH NO INTEREST?? WHAT MAKES THE REAL THING REQUIRE FICTION TO MAKE IT MORE INTERESTING?ARE YOU KIDDING???

So on this February day, I'm throwing down the gauntlet to any and all semi-intelligent and intelligent film makers, all would-be film makers, and anyone with a cell phone...make the film from whatever truth is known about these killings. Don't add, subtract, divide or multiply anything. Try it........you just might be surprised at the result. Go on, I dare ya'!

Cheers, and back to my book.......

[protohistorian]

Christine, you're probably correct. But then I've never watched many of the slasher/yucky/chainsaw kind of crappy movies anyway. The one thing that has always made me slightly short of nuts is that, while the real story is cruel and dingy and drab and pointless and very sad, THAT story is NEVER told. The women are portrayed as well-off (financially, at least), pretty, clean, happy in their work (YUCK!), dressed well, and amazed that they are victims of the guy in the top hat. The truth is so far from that, it's in another solar system. If the truth of these lives were told on film, I'd bet you a steak dinner that NO ONE would go see it........now how sad is THAT????

I'm out of here, guys...the pudding hurlers have been slandered and the cereal killers ignored, so I'm gonna go read about horse racing in the early 19th century!

That THAT, you Philistines!!!

Judy

I am sorry if I upset you!

[kensei]

Christine, you're probably correct. But then I've never watched many of the slasher/yucky/chainsaw kind of crappy movies anyway. The one thing that has always made me slightly short of nuts is that, while the real story is cruel and dingy and drab and pointless and very sad, THAT story is NEVER told. The women are portrayed as well-off (financially, at least), pretty, clean, happy in their work (YUCK!), dressed well, and amazed that they are victims of the guy in the top hat. The truth is so far from that, it's in another solar system. If the truth of these lives were told on film, I'd bet you a steak dinner that NO ONE would go see it........now how sad is THAT????

I'm out of here, guys...the pudding hurlers have been slandered and the cereal killers ignored, so I'm gonna go read about horse racing in the early 19th century!

That THAT, you Philistines!!!

Judy

Needler, I'll take your bet, and respectfully disagree about the prospect of a truly accurate Ripper movie. There have been so many inaccurate ones, I think that afficianados of the case have been craving that one really GOOD one for years. I know I have. I'll point to two "true crime" movies about American cases in the last few years, "Black Dahlia" and "Zodiac." The first was so fictionalized and treated its victim so luridly that I hated it. (And with the amount of sex in it, it may indeed have been "murder porn.") Then when "Zodiac" came out, even though it too was about the lives and deaths of real people, and even though it did take a few liberties here and there, it was for the most part very accurate and had me pumping my fist going, "YES! Hollywood finally got one right!" (Others might disagree and that's ok.) Point is, the Ripper story deserves a 100% accurate movie. A good director would keep gratuitous gore to a minimum, though obviously there would have to be some, and there would be no neat and tidy solution at the end. The murders would be shown, but without showing the killer's face, as was done in "Zodiac." Such a movie- with a few known stars to draw an audience but cast mostly with unknowns- would educate millions who know only the myths or not even that much about the true facts of the case as no book or website could ever have enough circulation to do.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Christine!

No, but crime shows about fictional killers who supposedly imitate Jack the Ripper are murder porn.

An excellent point!

I personally think, that we are on these boards for the following reason;

Because Saucy Jacky never got caught!

Had he been, the whole Jack the Ripper case would probably only be of any interest for the university criminology studies!

All the best
Jukka

[needler]

Christine, you're probably correct. But then I've never watched many of the slasher/yucky/chainsaw kind of crappy movies anyway. The one thing that has always made me slightly short of nuts is that, while the real story is cruel and dingy and drab and pointless and very sad, THAT story is NEVER told. The women are portrayed as well-off (financially, at least), pretty, clean, happy in their work (YUCK!), dressed well, and amazed that they are victims of the guy in the top hat. The truth is so far from that, it's in another solar system. If the truth of these lives were told on film, I'd bet you a steak dinner that NO ONE would go see it........now how sad is THAT????

I'm out of here, guys...the pudding hurlers have been slandered and the cereal killers ignored, so I'm gonna go read about horse racing in the early 19th century!

That THAT, you Philistines!!!

Judy

[protohistorian]

spoken like someone holding a pudding and taking aim.