Which pub is this? (Commercial Street)

[Khanada]

According to A. M. Phypers' "The House Where Jack Swilled?" article in the Dissertations, the pub I've colored in green is the Commercial Tavern, 142 Commercial Street. The article doesn't say anything about the pub I have outlined in red; it states that the Commercial Tavern was the only other pub in Commercial Street (together with the Ten Bells, the Golden Heart [Hart?], Red Lion, Queen's Head, and Princess Alice).



The first thing that occurs to me is that this building simply wasn't a public house in 1888; after all, the ordnance map is from several years after that date, and this seems the most logical reason why the place wouldn't have been in the article.

Does anyone know whether or not this was a pub in 1888? If it was, does anyone know the name of the establishment, and the name of the landlord?

Many thanks!

[The Grave Maurice]

I suspect you're right that it wasn't a pub in 1888, and it isn't one now. As I recall, there are no pubs on Commercial Street between the Golden Heart and the Commercial Tavern---although both of those are pretty decent places for a pint or two.

[Scott Nelson]

The Grave Maurice - what do you know about pubs anyway?

[m_w_r]

Hi -

To be honest with you, this has me stumped. On the map you have provided (1894), there is clearly a separate building between the building marked "Hall" (which was the Royal Cambridge Hall of Varieties, according to the 1895 Directory) and the covered alleyway to its north. But on the 1873 map, and on the 1913 map, the "Hall" - presenting moving pictures by 1913, apparently - goes all the way up to the alleyway. So it is as if there was a building, and then, between 1873 and 1895, they subsectioned it and made the offshoot part of it a pub, and then, between 1895 and 1913, they returned it to its original form.

Just one more thing - call me stupid if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but could the "PH" refer to a building on the opposite side of the street? Even if it does, I have had no luck tracking it down in the 1895 directory. We need Rob, John or Philip here.

Mark

[Monty]

Mark

Not sure about opposite mate, the Peabody buildings were there. Though they had shops along the ground floor Im not sure about pubs. Would the RCMH hold a public house as well? Of course, the back of the hall was subject to a Jack scare only months after Coles was murdered.

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Wasn`t the Royal Cambridge the place where Alice McKenzie took the boy Dixon for a drink early on the evening of her murder ?

If it`s the place, ( from memory ) she then went for a drink at the pub next door - it`s named in Ultimate Source book- can anyone check ? The pub is named in that chapter.

[m_w_r]

Would the RCMH hold a public house as well?

Hi Monty,

Ostensibly, this seems logical - modern theatres must have alcohol licenses, and a "PH" on an Ordnance Survey map of the period may, I think, have denoted little more than that the place held a full license, as opposed to the thousands of places which had beer licenses only. That is to say, I can make an argument to say that a place marked with a "PH" need not have been what we might think of as a pub. But whither the evidence? Looking at the OS Map of Fleet Street and the Strand (1873), there are several theatres depicted, and one is probably entitled to assume that they were serving refreshments to their patrons, but there is no "PH" next to their names. Something else is going on here, and for some reason I am damn well going to sit up drinking whisky until I find out what it is...

Regards,

Mark

[Rob Clack]

It's 'The Birmingham'

The Royal Cambridge was built around 1869. Rebuilt in 1898 and finaly demolished in 1936.

1895 directory


Rob

[The Grave Maurice]

But don't let Rob's discovery interfere with your drinking, Mark.

[Monty]

And this is why...

...Rob Clack is worth his weight in Smirnoff everybody! Rob, was the reason for the Halls rebuild due to a fire?

[m_w_r]

"Ooh ... I shall have ... a pint of ... vinegar, please."

I shall stick with the whisky and transform as if by magic into the debonair fellow I have always wanted to be.

Thanks, Rob.

Mark

[Rob Clack]

...Rob Clack is worth his weight in Smirnoff everybody! Rob, was the reason for the Halls rebuild due to a fire?

It was 28 January 1896.

This is it around 1898



And this is the larger scale O.S from 1894-96



Rob

[Ade]

The census of 1891 talks about the Royal Cambridge Music Hall & Tavern. The original music halls were simply larger rooms attached to pubs. See the attached picture of Westons Music Hall in Holborn in 1880 - this was designed by same man as designed the Royal Cambridge in 1864. Note the fact that the audience is sitting at tables drinking, rather than sitting in rows watching the show. After the fire of 1896, the Royal Cambridge was rebuilt as a theatre.

Thats my theory anyway!

[Stewart P Evans]

Commercial Tavern

Out of interest, the Commercial Tavern at 142 Commercial Street, mentioned above, was within sight of Commercial Street Police Station and saw all the comings and goings there. In March 1878 the lease of the premises was assigned to William James Blumson who was the landlord in 1888. Here is the assignment of 1878 -

[Observer]

Hi A photo of the Commercial Tavern taken three weeks ago



all the best

Observer