The Ripper's Knife?

[eclectic browser]

A newbie question: has anyone considered looking for DNA traces on "suspect" knives and, in case of any finding, comparing them with DNA from the bodies of victims or from these latter's descendants where known (or even doing the same with suspected killers' DNA)? Has Patricia Cornwell ever thought about doing with knives (or at least with Rumbelow's knife) what she did with letters?

[smezenen]

A newbie question: has anyone considered looking for DNA traces on "suspect" knives and, in case of any finding, comparing them with DNA from the bodies of victims or from these latter's descendants where known (or even doing the same with suspected killers' DNA)? Has Patricia Cornwell ever thought about doing with knives (or at least with Rumbelow's knife) what she did with letters?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the knife Mr. Rumbelow has was used for gardening for some years and was actually broken. if the knife was used to dig around in the ground dont think any DNA evidence would have survived.

[niko]

I expect Jack had more than one knife. How many knives do you have? I must have at least 25.

Interesting Stan ! If Jack had as many knives as you I supose he did'nt bother looseing one of them or giving one away. I belive the " from hell letter " is belived by many to be an original letter from Jack, a quote from the letter - " I may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer ". All the best. Agur.

niko

[fido]

Full details of Don Rumbelow's knife, including the Phoenix Park suggestion, will be found under "Jack the Ripper's Knife" in the New A-Z.

It does not include my own casual speculation that Don might have a knife once owned by Ostrog, which might well have passed to Churchill as the knife of a Ripper suspect.

Martin Fido

[lynn cates]

Phoenix Park

Hello Martin. Funny you should mention Phoenix Park. When I read about amputation knives, I thought about that first.

Of course, it is my understanding that the knives actually used to kill Lord Cavendish and Mr. Burke were burned--according to Carey--after the murders. But I was thinking of the two found in the loft, one of which was mistakenly thought to have a drop of blood on it. (Turns out it was rust.)

Not unlikely, I suppose, for those to find their way into other hands once the trial was over.

Cheers.
LC

[TomTomKent]

Sorry, I in no way wish to demean or sully the comments of Mister Fido, or indeed derail the subject.

But did anybody else read about the idea of owning the knife of a Ripper suspect and wonder if that should be the start to a Hammer film?

[niko]

Full details of Don Rumbelow's knife, including the Phoenix Park suggestion, will be found under "Jack the Ripper's Knife" in the New A-Z.

It does not include my own casual speculation that Don might have a knife once owned by Ostrog, which might well have passed to Churchill as the knife of a Ripper suspect.

Martin Fido

Hi Martin, although I,m not into reading book's, I have read Paul Begg's "THE FACT'S". I am presently waiting for my stepfarther to bring me over from "FOYLES" two book's one being Rob's book about Kozminski and the other Spiro's book about black magic.

In Paul Begg's book it is mentioned about Ostrog "that he was habitually cruel to women" and that he carried about with him surgical knives. I also read that Ostrog stole - book's, a microscope, gold chain's and watches and about five different "cup's", I belive to be sought of holy grail cups, "why an obssesion on stealing "cup's" I can't imagine why? "I supose for the money".

What I understand from Paul's book " the fact's", Ostrog went to steal the cup's and did not steal them by chance. If I don't remember wrongly, Ostrog was caught by a soldier who was asleep in the room where he tried to steal one of this cup's.

That what you speculate about Donald Rumbelow's knife belonging to Ostrog, "I could belive". I presonally see Ostrog as a "keen thief" but in my opinion was not the Whitechapel murderer. I have read about Don Rumbelow's knife and I think I know all that is written about his knife, ok then mate all the best, Agur.

niko

[fido]

Hi Niko!
Again, full details about Ostrog will be found in the new A-Z. Basically he was a simple confidence man and sneak thief. But he really does seem to have had some medical training, and my own belief is that the habit of carrying medical equipment including knives as claimed by Macnaghten could have combined with the police doctors' assertion that an amputation knife might have caused the Ripper injuries, and the intense police anger always generated by assaults or lethal threats to serving officers, brought down misplaced suspicion on him. Macnaghten's claim that his antecedents (criminal record) were of the very worst kind is hardly born out by what we know about him.

You should find the new A-Z very useful, despite the scattering of errors and bad proofreading, which the authors very much regret, and for which the only apology we can offer is that the the repeated hiccups in publication date forced upon us by the publishing mishaps left us with inadequate planned time for the full final corrective reading that the original draft had received three years previously. I, for example, was back to the teaching term, and unable to give the careful editing for language, punctuation and spelling which is normally my brief. I was depressed by the the poor proofing that came out of the publisher's office, and horrified by the inadequacy of the index. (The first edition of the A-Z in hardback would show you what I think to be a useful way of indexing Ripper books, but I simply didn't have time to do such a job for this edition. My wife actually objects to my doing anything at all for it, as the ultimate remuneration we received, thanks to the original publisher's bankruptcy, was entirely inadequate for the quantity and quality of work undertaken.)
The magnificent collection of pictures largely obtained through the generosity of Stewart Evans, and slotted in by Paul Begg to accompany the appropriate articles throughout the book make it seem to me well worth its cost and an excellent compensation for occasional errors. And since Keith, as usual, did most of the absolutely magnificent search which tries to keep us up-to-date with the astonishing constant expansion of Ripper-related knowledge, I must shoulder the blame for the book's inadequacies, and apologize, too, for the fact that teaching commitments prevented me from devoting any time to the message boards when it was published, and the onslaught of critical observations took place and invited an apology.

But the amount of actual error in a book nearly 600 pages long is really very little, and need really only concern anyone who is writing the sort of book that should in any case have them checking all their references and double-checking information received from encyclopedias and general reference works like this.

By the way, my teaching term starts again tomorrow, so I will be unlikely to be able to make any response to any follow-up you post.
With all good wishes,

Martin F

[niko]

Hi Niko!
Again, full details about Ostrog will be found in the new A-Z. Basically he was a simple confidence man and sneak thief. But he really does seem to have had some medical training, and my own belief is that the habit of carrying medical equipment including knives as claimed by Macnaghten could have combined with the police doctors' assertion that an amputation knife might have caused the Ripper injuries, and the intense police anger always generated by assaults or lethal threats to serving officers, brought down misplaced suspicion on him. Macnaghten's claim that his antecedents (criminal record) were of the very worst kind is hardly born out by what we know about him.

You should find the new A-Z very useful, despite the scattering of errors and bad proofreading, which the authors very much regret, and for which the only apology we can offer is that the the repeated hiccups in publication date forced upon us by the publishing mishaps left us with inadequate planned time for the full final corrective reading that the original draft had received three years previously. I, for example, was back to the teaching term, and unable to give the careful editing for language, punctuation and spelling which is normally my brief. I was depressed by the the poor proofing that came out of the publisher's office, and horrified by the inadequacy of the index. (The first edition of the A-Z in hardback would show you what I think to be a useful way of indexing Ripper books, but I simply didn't have time to do such a job for this edition. My wife actually objects to my doing anything at all for it, as the ultimate remuneration we received, thanks to the original publisher's bankruptcy, was entirely inadequate for the quantity and quality of work undertaken.)
The magnificent collection of pictures largely obtained through the generosity of Stewart Evans, and slotted in by Paul Begg to accompany the appropriate articles throughout the book make it seem to me well worth its cost and an excellent compensation for occasional errors. And since Keith, as usual, did most of the absolutely magnificent search which tries to keep us up-to-date with the astonishing constant expansion of Ripper-related knowledge, I must shoulder the blame for the book's inadequacies, and apologize, too, for the fact that teaching commitments prevented me from devoting any time to the message boards when it was published, and the onslaught of critical observations took place and invited an apology.

But the amount of actual error in a book nearly 600 pages long is really very little, and need really only concern anyone who is writing the sort of book that should in any case have them checking all their references and double-checking information received from encyclopedias and general reference works like this.

By the way, my teaching term starts again tomorrow, so I will be unlikely to be able to make any response to any follow-up you post.
With all good wishes,

Martin F

Hi Martin, I think I must add the new "A to Z" to my shopping list, I admire your honesty about the hic-up's on your writting.

I wish you a good teaching term, by the way you was born in a beautiful place "Penzance" I visited there as a kid also visited St Just and St Ives, "Sennen Cove a truely wonderful place", no need to reply, all the best, Agur.

niko

ps Keep on digging into the Whitechapel murder's.

[seecomber]

http://www.medword.com/surgical/sok.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Liston

Some more surgical knifes from the era.There was a fine set of small folding knives made in USA at that time,used for amputation-only have picture of the case.
Robert Liston's skills give a good insight into what a top 19th.century surgeon was capable of.
4 CVs were murdered in the dark of night.City gaslights went out at 11pm.

If City gaslights were extinguished at 11 pm how did Lawende and colleagues see Eddowes and companion in the unlit Church Passage? I always assumed the two gaslights were on but it was after 11pm.

[miss marple]

Two knives were used in amputation, one to cut skin, one to cut muscle, and a saw to cut through bone,
Jack could have been skilled with a knife as an offal dresser, removing kidneys and liver from carcasses in a slaughterhouse.
He probably had many knives, steel knives would wear down with all the sharpening, and there were knife grinders on the streets of Whitechapel.
Knives were easy to get and easy to to get sharpened.

Miss Marple

[Scott Nelson]

Organ grinders, yes. Knife grinders, no.

[niko]

Two knives were used in amputation, one to cut skin, one to cut muscle, and a saw to cut through bone,
Jack could have been skilled with a knife as an offal dresser, removing kidneys and liver from carcasses in a slaughterhouse.
He probably had many knives, steel knives would wear down with all the sharpening, and there were knife grinders on the streets of Whitechapel.
Knives were easy to get and easy to to get sharpened.

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple, I like your thought of Jack being a offal dresser, but is not necessary he could of been skillful with a knife. I personally am not a slaughterer but as being around farm's and hunter's in my family, from a very early age I learned to skin and all the rest to an animal, includeing removing the kidney's and liver. This last mentioned I could do blind folded, ofcourse I would take longer ( let's say the animal is a goat ) I could differ the organ's just by touching them, the knife does not need to be large, a small knife will do, only it need's to be very sharp. A Doctor friend of mine who is also a hunter totally agree's with me, " I,m sure I'm not half as fast as Lulu's dad he was a PROFESSIONAL ".

This is a coinsidence I discovered today, "you must know by now that I insist I have the Thomas Coram knife", well on the cover of Stephen Knight's book " new revised edition Jack the ripper the final solution" there is a knife, and you never quess what, it's a " French Sabatier knife " like the one I poses, just a coinsidence I supose, all the best, Agur.

niko

[niko]

Two knives were used in amputation, one to cut skin, one to cut muscle, and a saw to cut through bone,
Jack could have been skilled with a knife as an offal dresser, removing kidneys and liver from carcasses in a slaughterhouse.
He probably had many knives, steel knives would wear down with all the sharpening, and there were knife grinders on the streets of Whitechapel.
Knives were easy to get and easy to to get sharpened.

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple, I like your thought of Jack being a offal dresser, but is not necessary he could of been skillful with a knife. I personally am not a slaughterer but as being around farm's and hunter's in my family, from a very early age I learned to skin and all the rest to an animal, includeing removing the kidney's and liver. This last mentioned I could do blind folded, ofcourse I would take longer ( let's say the animal is a goat ) I could differ the organ's just by touching them, the knife does not need to be large, a small knife will do, only it need's to be very sharp. A Doctor friend of mine who is also a hunter totally agree's with me, " I,m sure I'm not half as fast as Lulu's dad he was a PROFESSIONAL ".

This is a coinsidence I discovered today, "you must know by now that I insist I have the Thomas Coram knife", well on the cover of Stephen Knight's book " new revised edition Jack the ripper the final solution" there is a knife, and you never quess what, it's a " French Sabatier knife " like the one I poses, just a coinsidence I supose, all the best, Agur.

niko

[miss marple]

Interesting Niko. I have always thought Jack worked in a slaughterhouse. Lulu's dad could remove lights in thirty seconds.Many men were skilful with a knife who were not doctors
Scott,the travelling knife grinders were a familiar sight on the streets with their carts and knife sharpening apparatus, They would go from house to house sharpening knives and scissors. There are photos of them and even some of their carts survive. I have seen a Victorian knife grinding apparatus, Some are in museums.
Before stainless steel mild steel would blunt easily, so I think Jack would need more than one knife to be as effective as possible!

Miss Marple