The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

[perrymason]

Hi Don,

Thats a sound bit of conjecture. And it addresses the human element, which can be less than ideal at the best of times. Interesting thoughts Don. I realize that there are factors that might weigh heavily on his accumen, and as Sam pointed out, there are line of sight perspectives and lighting factors that might weigh heavily as well.

The thing that nags me is that when Long made that first pass after Kates death, he was aware that this was the second murder of the evening, and that the man they assumed they were seeking likely lived somewhere among the streets he and others were patrolling. Im wondering whether that fact might have sharpened his scannning. There was some urgency at that moment....the optimum time to assess any clue is as soon after the event as possible, and a casual stroll looking casually about doesnt seem fitting to me. After all, the man might well be on the streets when he made that pass.

Would a policeman, knowing that a killer might be lurking in a dark alley or entrance at that very moment, look more intently for signs or clues? My guess would be yes, if only for his own safety. Jack hadnt killed a man, but he hadnt run into a policeman just after murdering either.

You know, when your surroundings seem trepadacious, often the senses become more acute. And where he found those items it was likely quiet, dark, and forboding...and a murderer had been out killing recently. Does a quick glance, one that might miss seeing something out of place, seem like heightened awareness?

Best regards Don.

[Sam Flynn]

The thing that nags me is that when Long made that first pass after Kates death, he was aware that this was the second murder of the evening.

Actually, Mike, I don't think he was. Long states that he only learned about the second murder when he set off to the police station - the apron already being in his possession by then.

[Supe]

Michael,

The thing that nags me is that when Long made that first pass after Kates death, he was aware that this was the second murder of the evening,

But we do not know if that is so. He testified that he had heard of the Mitre Square muder someime before he carried the apron to the police station. Indeed, there is a possibility he only heard of the murder(s) from PC190H as his testimony in that regard was phrased oddly and evidently was repeated on two occasions as if by rote. To wit: "Before proceeding there [the police station with the apron part] I had heard of a murder having been committed." Moreover, and adding to the confusion, when Long searched the staircases he was not looking for a murderer but for a body. Thus, it would seem, even had he already heard of the Mitre Square murder, he did not connect the bloody apron part with that murder.

In fact, PC Long's testimony is a jumble. It may be that he was not terribly bright as it sounds as if he had been carefully coached in what to say because every time, to use a modern metaphor, he had to go off the teleprompter he floundered. It also seems clear from the inquests transcript that the jury was not at all satisfied with his testimony, which suggests he appeared even more at sea than the impression gleaned from the written word.

In any case, while I am sure that under the circumstances you would have been very alert and very conscious of your duties, you are not PC Alfred Long (for which I think we can all be thankful). It is a fallacy that often arises for us to expect Jack or any of the other players in the drama to have acted the way we think we would have acted (viz. Albert Cadosche).

Instead, we are stuck having to make sense, if possible, of the confused and confusing testimony of PC Long.

Don.

[DrB]

Gsg

Hi everyone ,
New to the site, not a ripperologist , but read a few books. In my opinion the whole mystery pivots on the Sept 1888 double murder night. He kills Stride and then soon after kills Eddowes - why? He walks or goes by cart to Goulson st carrying a blood soaked piece of apron and some organs in his pocket!! He enters a stairwell leading to some flats and drops the apron and writes a message on the wall ? who lived in those flats - was it a message for them? Incredibly a PC on the beat spots the "rag" out of all the rubbish in the east end of London and links this cloth to a murder over a mile away a few hours earlier. Why not write above Eddowes body if he wanted the message to be found - did this PC spot something not meant to be found? If it was written in chalk he must have set off with chalk in pocket and therefore it was part of the nights "plan".

Keep thinking

DrB

[Monty]

Hey Guys,

Been out of the loop for a while but back now. Just a few things that I think are important to mention.

1. It was Longs first night alone on his new beat in an area far more criminal friendly than his regular patch.

2. it wasnt confirmed that it was Eddowes apron until Browns post mortem.

To me, Longs statement and testimony smacks of panic.

[KatBradshaw]

Panic maybe. It certainly seems like he feels he has to justify the fact that he didn't find it first time round.

[Monty]

Kat,

Indeed, however it must be remembered that Longs duty was to the Queens highways, byways and buildings. He had no reason to look into that private dwelling entrance unless he felt a crime had been committed or was about to be commited.

Maybe Long was aware of a crime after that 2.20am sweep and started to check entrances.

[KatBradshaw]

Indeed, however it must be remembered that Longs duty was to the Queens highways, byways and buildings. He had no reason to look into that private dwelling entrance unless he felt a crime had been committed or was about to be commited.

Maybe Long was aware of a crime after that 2.20am sweep and started to check entrances.

Thats true. I just thought that he may have felt that he should have seen it. Like when we all blame ourselves for things that we couldn't have forseen.

[Observer]

Hi

You know if the Ripper didn't write that message then someone else did, and that person in the days following the messages discovery would surely have realised the importance it held in the inquiry. I wonder why they never came forward to claim responsibility? Although on second thoughts they would have realised that they would have to encounter a police grilling. The fact that they never ventured forward might also point to the fact that they were alone at the time of writing, obviously the more people who witnessed the writing the more chance of the author being discovered.

all the best

Observer

[caz]

They may have been right about the graffito being anti-semitic, by dint of which it might have inflamed local passions irrespective of whether Jack wrote it. It's association - coincidental or otherwise - with the apron would have posed a reasonable risk in that regard.

If Long didn't immediately notice the writing the second time, then maybe it was because he was unsighted (e.g., his beat went north ? south and the writing was "behind" him on the northern pillar of the doorway, or vice versa), or the writing wasn't particularly conspicuous in the gloom. It may have been a combination of both factors.

If so, and the same lighting/sighting conditions applied to the bobby on the previous shift, then it's quite possible that the writing was on the wall already, unnoticed, before Long even started his beat.

Hi Sam,

Coming late to this discussion…

I’m surprised to see you falling for this illogical old chestnut that the risk of local passions being inflamed by the message was because of its association with the apron.

Remind me what apron and what association, once the offending article had been whisked away from beneath the writing? PC Long was hardly standing there with a megaphone, announcing in his best League of Gentlemen voice: “If you are local, and come in your gangs of one and two to have your passions inflamed, gather round and have a butchers at this bloody apron left by the murderer”, making it necessary to erase the message before anyone could take up his generous invitation and make a dangerous "association" between one and t’other.

Furthermore, if the writing was not particularly conspicuous in the gloom and had been missed by Long (twice), and had also been there for some time, unnoticed or ignored by residents, passers-by and previous beat bobbies alike, how likely would it really have been to cause a riot anytime soon, with the pinny safely out of the picture?

Yes, the circumstantial evidence allows for the writing to have been there earlier and just not noticed (except perhaps by a sharp-eyed, sharp-witted Jack, who immediately thought it was a good idea to dump the apron under it - although personally I think that’s resorting to the most tortuous logic, in order to attribute the message to anyone but our man on the spot); but none of that evidence - not a shred - indicates that the writing was there earlier, or arrived before Jack.

The other argument, that all those Jewish ‘connections’ to the murders would have been par for the course in any area with a high concentration of Jewish residents and businesses, and therefore nothing more than we would expect with the Whitechapel series, is somewhat dented by the fact that the Jewish aspects themselves are very much concentrated on that one eventful night, being relatively few and far between otherwise, and arguably less obvious. Add to that the evidence that the majority of people in Jack’s killing field were not Jewish, and we are back to the other murder nights actually being more representative of the area by not featuring many notably Jew-specific aspects, while double event night was awash with them by comparison.

Still could have been coincidence, because one murder night will inevitably feature more than any other. But if one is prepared to allow for Jack to have been in the majority, ie non-Jewish, not living in a cave, reasonably aware of his own publicity and able to pick up tips from it, then it’s at least feasible that for his next outing after Hanbury St and the whole Leather Apron business he could see how it would be to his advantage to concentrate the minds of the three ps - police, press and public - onto Jewish suspects if he got the chance. It may even have influenced him to walk along Berner St (perhaps with a piece of chalk in his pocket) to see what opportunities he might get to stir something up in that direction. Seeing Liz there may have stirred up something else into the bargain.

I agree with Ben (hiya Hutch Bunny ) that there’s nothing unduly fanciful in allowing an opportunist serial killer to have some kind of blame-shifting strategy in mind, let alone ‘untenable’. Jack may not have been Brain of Britain, but he still manages to keep the best brains in the dark about how his own worked.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

I’m surprised to see you falling for this illogical old chestnut that the risk of local passions being inflamed by the message was because of its association with the apron.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, Caz. What I meant, specifically, was that local passions, or suspicions, in respect of the Ripper being a Jew might have been inflamed. That Jack had announced his presence in the doorway, whether by apron, graffito or both, may have been sufficient for folk to reinforce their prejudices in respect of the Ripper's ethnicity, and this would have been the case whether the apron was still there or not. The simple knowledge that "Jack woz 'ere" was sufficient to incur the risk of a connection being made - irrespective of whether Jack wrote the message, and irrespective of what it actually meant.

[Tom_Wescott]

Warren's excuse might have been applicable, but it was still very, very weak. I believe his superiors felt the same which is why they launched their investigation into his actions just days before he "handed in" his resignation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[caz]

Hi Sam,

You're still not getting it. No local passions or suspicions could have been inflamed by the message sans pinny, for the reasons you claim, unless someone had thoughtfully informed passers-by (while waiting for the daylight that would have enabled a photographer to do his work) that "Jack woz 'ere" and had 'announced his presence' with a calling card.

How do you think anyone would have acquired this 'simple knowledge' at that early stage of the game? I thought one of the main arguments against Jack writing the message was that there was absolutely nothing in it about the murders, let alone, as you put it, in respect of the Ripper being a Jew. Before the general public cottoned on to any "association" with the pinny, it was supposedly just a simple "Jews go home" or "leave us Jews alone" sentiment. How would that amount to Jack announcing his presence?

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

You're still not getting it.

You're telling me, Caz! Oh... you're on about this apron business

No local passions or suspicions could have been inflamed by the message sans pinny, for the reasons you claim, unless someone had thoughtfully informed passers-by that "Jack woz 'ere"...

But that's just it! People did know that "Jack woz 'ere", even after the apron had been taken away.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

As to the question of whether the GSG is anti-semetic, one literal translation I believe is, and even if the Ripper wrote it, its not at all a revelation of Jack's ethnicity. Its a matter of correcting the records for something the "Juwes" are evading blame for. "Jack" could be anything from a red haired Protestant Irishman to a tribal American Sioux Indian based on the writing. One thing is revealed at least, if he wrote it, he is almost certainly not a Jew. The mispelling, plus the context of the message when juxtaposed with a group of Jews who blamed a "madman at large" for a murder in their yard, makes a good argument for a semi-literate gentile author....whether the killer from Mitre Square or not.

Best regards all.