The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

[Sam Flynn]

I've no idea what the building to the North of the VH is.

It's the Princess Alice, I believe - on the corner, opposite the Victoria Home. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Odd that Leather Apron preferred a "red" pub

It's not a red pub - it's colourless in that map. The building opposite - the VH - is red, but the northern part of Wentworth Street, and the eastern part of Commercial Street north of the pub, are both dark blue.

20 seconds! Try it! (I'd go with "close proximity")

If I want to cover 50-90 yards (or whatever the hell it is), I would not wish to do so in 20 seconds, unless I fancied a trot.

The Imperial Club cannot be said to have been within close proximity to anything other than the buildings either side of it, and neither of those were in "close proximity" to where Eddowes was killed. If you continue to insist to the contrary, then I can only assume that you've been possessed by the ghost of Stephen Knight.

[Sam Flynn]

That is a sophism, Sam.
The East-End is in London, and there were many Brits as well, and Irish, etc.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT THEEEEEEEEEE MAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

I've had it with this lunatic thread.

[Fisherman]

I actually think that Sams answer went a long way to clarify his stance on the matter, David; whenever a group of people, regardless of what factor - nationality or something else - is represented in abundance in an area, things that happen in that area are logically bound to take place in what you may call close proximity to those representing that very group.
Putting it another way, all of the murders were committed not all that far from police stations, and in Mitre Square, there was a policeman living and an ex-copper working night-shift, meaning that they were both likely to be around when Eddowes was cut.
...but no, that does not lead me to suggest a policeman, ALTHOUGH there were such rumours around at the time.

Incidentally, Sam, I think Ben is right on where the princess Alice is and was situated (though formerly a storey and a half higher): to the east of the Victoria home, and not to the north.

The best, David, Sam, Ben!
Fisherman

[Dan Norder]

Whatever it was, David, it wasn't in "close proximity", I'm afraid.

Well, sure, if we all have to follow your particular interpretation of "close proximity" anyway. I think it's fair to say that someone picking up a prostitute across the street from a Jewish club and then taking her through the nearest alleyway to kill her in some dark spot is still within close proximity to the club regardless of whether you think there's any special significance to it or not.

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you, Fisherman. Sensible words indeed. Either that, or you're as mad as I am.

[DVV]

It doesn't suggest me a Jew, my dear...
It suggets me that there is place enough for doubts, questions, thoughts, various scenarii.

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

It's the Princess Alice, I believe - on the corner, opposite the Victoria Home. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Princess Alice does reside opposite the Victoria Home (now an ugly one-story building with a flower stall outside), but it's the red building to the East, not the grey building to the North. Dunno what the grey building was and is, but a pub it isn't.

If I want to cover 50-90 yards (or whatever the hell it is), I would not wish to do so in 20 seconds, unless I fancied a trot.

You wouldn't need to trot 'cause it's appreciably less than 50-90 yards - more like 25. Honestly, I'd be delighted to conduct a small Tour-de-Spit for anyone intereseted in ascertaining the correct distances involved. When I use expressions like "close proximity", I do so not because I've been inhabited by the spectre of a bearded, bespectacled journalist with an outlandish theory, but because I've been to the sites themselves, and that surely must count for something?

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

"Regardless of whether I think", Dan?

If Ben had said, all along, that the Imperial Club was "within easy walking distance" of where Eddowes was killed, I'd have no qualms at all. To say, baldly and without qualification, that it was "in close proximity", however, is imbuing the situation with a greater significance than the geography warrants.

[DVV]

Looking at the map, I guess I have to state that a 20 seconds walk is enough to pass by 20 millions Jews.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

The Princess Alice does reside opposite the Victoria Home (now an ugly one-story building with a flower stall outside), but it's the red building to the East, not the grey building to the North.

I get confused when I'm on the ground in that area, Ben. Thanks for putting me straight.

However, red area as it may have been, there are a fair few dark blue areas around there, and un-surveyed regions of whatever hue. Unfortunately we can't determine, from the map as it stands, what the demographics would have been in that immediate area. Plus, remember, "red" doesn't mean "anti-semitic", only "premises with a low percentage of Jewish residents".

[Ben]

Hi all,

From my experience, It was approximately 25 yards and a 25 seconds walk away.

I'll leave it up to others to decide whether or not that qualifies as "close proximity".

Plus, remember, "red" doesn't mean "anti-semitic", only "premises with a low percentage of Jewish residents".

Oh indeed. I never said the killer was anti-semitic.

[Sam Flynn]

Ben,

Why can't we simply agree to say that it was "within a short walk" and leave it at that?

[claire]

Hi Claire,



You wouldn't be able to prove it, no, but you'd probably conceed that a reasonable case can be made, at the very least, for the blood having been Lisa's rather than confidently ruling out any possible connection between the two. When it comes to "Dave woz 'ere" though, my first consideration wouldn't be that Dave dunnit, but rather that someone was trying to frame Dave for the murder in a less-than-subtle fashion.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Really? Wow! I think that's really reaching. Your first thought would honestly be that they are related? (Actually, the walls round my neighbourhood here in the Gulf read, 'Talibaan.' Al Jazeera's studios are just down the road. There are lots of people in dish dashas wandering around. Should I be looking for Osama bL in my street?)

On a more serious, but related, note, I wonder how much graffiti and posters and what not were around on the walls. I remember a post to do with this not long ago, but I also know that many photos I've seen show some pretty 'busy' walls in that part of the East End. Of course, if this was an otherwise pristine area, I'd be more inclined to believe any links.

Hi DVV,

Hmm. Sam said it better than me. 'Jewish coincidences?' There are many, many more links to the gentile East End in the events of not only the night of the double event and, I daresay, a whole bunch of other, smaller, subgroups too (dockers, dossers, horses and hookers).

[DVV]

Ben,

Why can't we simply agree to say that it was "within a short walk" and leave it at that?

We can be even more precise. "Within a short walk" is quite vague, it can be a 5 minutes walk.
The two spots are in fact a stone's throw away from each other.

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Hi Claire,

Really? Wow! I think that's really reaching. Your first thought would honestly be that they are related?

First thought - yes, why not?

In your hypothetical scenario, "Lisa's" body was found not far away from a patch of her blood and an accompanying piece of graffiti specifically mentioning her name in a derogatory context. You're saying that your first thought would be that they two weren't related, and the graffiti almost certainly referred to someone else called Lisa? I think that deserves more of a "wow!" than anything I've suggested, in all honesty.

Similarly, the "first thought" amongst the 1888 police seemed to be that the murders and the message were connected. Yes, there's a reasonable argument for the two being unrelated, but it's hardly straying into fantasy or "really reaching" to believe otherwise.

Best regards,
Ben