Suspicious about the Ripper Walk I took...

[emlodik]

When I was in London this spring, I naturally booked myself a Jack the Ripper walk, but all the major walks with noted Ripperologists were booked weeks in advance, so I took a less known one with a girl named Leslie, who claimed to be a number one expert.

Anyway... She made a few claims that I never heard before. Can someone clear this up for me?

She said that Mary Ann Nichols (whom she only called Polly) was at first found by two men who knew her. They found her with her eyes opened and her skirts lifted up. They decided to give her some "dignity" by lowering the skirts and closing her eyes, thus tampering with evidence. They then fled because they did not want to get involved with the police and came out as witnesses only weeks later. Is there any truth to that?

She also claimed that Mary Kelly used to work in a Workhouse (she even showed us which one) across the street from Miller's Court. She could not get released until she provided herself with permanent lodgings and Joe Barnett rented out the flat across the street for them in order to get her out. Any truth to this story as well?

There were more claims she made that cut through to my ear (no pun intended.) I just can't think of any, but I'll post them once I'll remember.

Thanks a lot in advance for the answers!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Emlodik,

Seems like a lot of strange statements from the tour guide there.

Yes, Polly was first found by two men (Cross and Paul) but to my knowledge they didn't know her.
Yes, her eyes were at least half open, and the two men did in fact lower her skirt before leaving the crime scene.
However, they immediately contacted a policeman (PC Jonas Mizen), so I can't agree on that they didn't want to get involved in a police matter (at this point they didn't know with certainty if she was dead anyway). They were both on their way to work and probably didn't want to be more late than they already were.

Secondly, I have NEVER heard of Mary Kelly working in the lodging house across the street (Crossinghams?). Nothing of that kind is mentioned in the police files or in the witness statements.

Where do some tour guides get this stuff?
I can only assume those are details added for curiousity and to make things more interesting. I see them more as silly fabrications rather than errors.

All the best

[Gabrielle]

Don't you recall which walk it was or at least where and when you had to meet?
I'm planning on taking one but I've heard Donald is currently off, so I'm in doubt now.
I do not want a tour like yours with made up goodies or incompetent guides.

(At first I was planning on taking several to see the difference and even make it tough on some incompetent but hey for what good? I first should learn a bit more myself..)

[emlodik]

Emlodik,

Seems like a lot of strange statements from the tour guide there.

Yes, Polly was first found by two men (Cross and Paul) but to my knowledge they didn't know her.
Yes, her eyes were at least half open, and the two men did in fact lower her skirt before leaving the crime scene.
However, they immediately contacted a policeman (PC Jonas Mizen), so I can't agree on that they didn't want to get involved in a police matter (at this point they didn't know with certainty if she was dead anyway). They were both on their way to work and probably didn't want to be more late than they already were.

Secondly, I have NEVER heard of Mary Kelly working in the lodging house across the street (Crossinghams?). Nothing of that kind is mentioned in the police files or in the witness statements.

Where do some tour guides get this stuff?
I can only assume those are details added for curiousity and to make things more interesting. I see them more as silly fabrications rather than errors.

All the best

Thanks for that!

Another story she told was that a factory Night Watchman was serving his shift just a few feet from where Catharine Eddows was killed, but later claimed he didn't hear or see a thing. Was that a fabrication as well?

[emlodik]

Don't you recall which walk it was or at least where and when you had to meet?
I'm planning on taking one but I've heard Donald is currently off, so I'm in doubt now.
I do not want a tour like yours with made up goodies or incompetent guides.

(At first I was planning on taking several to see the difference and even make it tough on some incompetent but hey for what good? I first should learn a bit more myself..)

I remember it was with a girl named Leslie. She seemed very witty, intelligent and a good storyteller, but is she a truthful, accurate Ripperologist? Well...

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

For the sake of factual accuracy and great performance, I would sincerely recommend Philip Hutchinson (the poster on these Boards who are called George Hutchinson) or Richard Jones.
Hutchinson is very careful with factual accuracy and also very entertaining - believe me, you won't get any wrong doors pointed out by this man. Unless I remember incorrectly, I actually think Philip is guding for Richard Jones tours.

This is no doubt the best alternative, now when Rumbelow no longer is active in that field for the moment. Philip have several tours a week.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Thanks for that!

Another story she told was that a factory Night Watchman was serving his shift just a few feet from where Catharine Eddows was killed, but later claimed he didn't hear or see a thing. Was that a fabrication as well?

No, that is probably rather accurate.

The night watch man, a man called Morris, at the Kearley and Tong warehouses across the square, just opposite the murder spot, was indeed found sweeping the stairs when PC Watkins ran inside after having discovered the body. The front door to the building had most certainly been open to some extent when the murder occurred. He hadn't heard or seen a thing.

All the best

[emlodik]

No, that is probably rather accurate.

The night watch man, a man called Morris, at the Kearley and Tong warehouses across the square, just opposite the murder spot, was indeed found sweeping the stairs when PC Watkins ran inside after having discovered the body. The front door to the building had most certainly been open to some extent when the murder occurred. He hadn't heard or seen a thing.

All the best

WOW... Do you think he was honest or just trying to weasel his way out of the case?

Thanks for all the great info! You see, I've been studying the Ripper case really hard these past few month because I want to develop a screenplay tentatively titled "The Whitechapel Murders" for my script writing class in the fall. Don't worry, there's not going to be any idiotic "Royal Conspiracy" twist in the end... To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the ending is going to be and whether it is wise to use "Mary Kelly survived" theory... I also wonder if there's anyone out here on these boards who'd be willing to help me out polish some facts and help revise the characters' dialects/manner of speech, so it would be accurate to 1888 Whitechapel. I want the screenplay to have a classic narrative, but still be the most histroically accurate work to date.

[John Savage]

Hi Emlodik,

"She also claimed that Mary Kelly used to work in a Workhouse (she even showed us which one) across the street from Miller's Court. She could not get released until she provided herself with permanent lodgings and Joe Barnett rented out the flat across the street for them in order to get her out. Any truth to this story as well"

There was no workhouse in Dorset Street, however at the end of Dorset Street is Crispin Street, on which stood (and I beleive still stands) the Providence Row Night Refuge. I suspect this may be the building pointed out to you by your tour guide.

Providence Row Night Refuge was not a workhouse, but a charitable insitution run by the Catholic Church and staffed by nuns of the Sisters of Mercy. It provided food and shelter to the destitue, but was not a workhouse as such.

The claim that Mary Kelly recieved assistance from Providence Row was made by the late Joseph Gorman Sickert but there is no proof of this claim, however it is entirely possible that this happened. More information about this claim can be found in the book "JTR The Final Solution" by Stephen Knight.

Hope this helps.

Rgds
John

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

True John,

I read too quickly and sloppily there.
The poster of course mentioned workhouse, not lodging house.

In any case, the answer is still no.
As you correctly state, there was no workhouse in Dorset Street as such nd we stil don't have any real evidence of Mary Kelly ever working at one. Neither Jospeh Gorman Sickert or Stephen Knight can be considered as reliable sources.

All the best

[John Savage]

Hi Glen,

I too was a little sloppy in my last post, late at night, drink in hand.

The story about Mary Kelly and Providence Row also includes some verbal testemony from a nun who was at the refuge at the time of the murders. I beleive it is included in a 1980's BBC documentary (which alas I have never seen).

Rgds
John

[George Hutchinson]

Hi John

The only 1980s BBC documentary on JTR I know of is the Freyling SHADOW OF THE RIPPER for the Timewatch strand in 1987.

Mind you, if it's playing on the nun talking about MJK at the shelter that sounds more like THE FINAL SOLUTION from 1980.

Are you saying there is a 1980s programme with an interview with a nun who was at the shelter in 1888?!?! I hope I'm misunderstanding here.

PHILIP

PS : Glenn, you old charmer, you...

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Are you saying there is a 1980s programme with an interview with a nun who was at the shelter in 1888?!?! I hope I'm misunderstanding here.

Well, you know what they say, Philip: cloister life is good for you.

All the best

[George Hutchinson]

It clearly did little good for Brother Martin at the Priory of the Holy Trinity, Glenn!

PHILIP

[FrankO]

WOW... Do you think he was honest or just trying to weasel his way out of the case?

Hi Evgueni,

This is what Morris told the press: "The strangest part of the whole thing, is that I heard no sound. As a rule I can hear the footstep of the policeman as he passes every quarter of an hour, so the woman could not have uttered any cry without my detecting it. It was only last night I made the remark to some policemen that I wished the butcher would come round Mitre Square, and I would soon give him a doing, and here, to be sure, he has come, and I was perfectly ignorant of it."

Make of that what you will, but it seems to me that he wasn't trying to weasel himself out of anything.

Good luck with your script! I think I could help you polish some facts, although there are others who are more knowledgable, but - as English isn't my native tongue - you have to turn to others for help on the manner-of-speech issue.

All the best,
Frank