JTR's profession

[caz]

hi Caz

...I think most likely he was there that night looking for Mary for a place to crash, possible hook up, didn't find her, or she was preoccupied, waited around for her guest to leave (or her return if she was out) then got tired and left. later coming up with aman story for gain.

less likely he was her killer IMHO, but least likely he was telling the total truth.

Isn't that more or less what I said, Abby, apart from the 'gain' motive?

I'm just not sure how Hutch would have thought to 'gain' from inventing a suspect the police would never find. My take is that if he felt obliged to admit he was there, at least up to around 3am, it would have been safer for him to describe a man who was inside with the deceased all that time, whether he actually saw that man or not.

Love,

Caz
X

[Varqm]

So if you read the newspapers on what happened between August and end of November what the ripper did was not good for business for a young 4 month old business venture/informal company which just started on March 1 or 29 1888.

[Varqm]

General Steam Navigation Company share price collapsed from a
high of £33 in 1872 to £7 in 1887*.
They took over the route Hamburg to Harwich from H. J. Perlbach and Co. in 1888**.I
suppose to drum up business.

*http://gala.gre.ac.uk/8535/4/Robert%...20Redacted.pdf

**https://books.google.com/books?id=aN...201888&f=false

[APerno]

I expect it's safe to say that JRT could be anyone you want him to be. He was undoubtedly fast, cunning, streetwise and could use a knife.

I hope I don't come across rude . . . (Whitechapel) 'street wise and could use a knife' does actually limit the field somewhat . . . but I am not sure a fruit dealer would have the necessary knife skills to do what Saucy Jacky did. Myself, I am a 'butcher' or 'fishmonger' advocate. I don't believe a lay person could slash a throat that deeply, that quickly (in the dark) unless he was very proficient with a knife. Also I never understood the 'doctor' claim. Doctors make gentle, precision cuts with a scalpel and would be just as incompetent as we are when it comes to slashing a throat.

[Busy Beaver]

I expect it's safe to say that JRT could be anyone you want him to be. He was undoubtedly fast, cunning, streetwise and could use a knife.

[Varqm]

And then Nov. 8-9 Kelly was killed one block away from the market.I think it's fair to say it's been thought of as a possibility in 1888.It's kind of fairly/relatively "obvious".

[Varqm]

Robert Horner:SF Market leasee
Do you think that a want is felt for sales by auction: "I think
so;they seem to be wanting to go there and sell.."
It seems to me "they" suggested/urged R. Horner to have an
auction house,it might make money.

The Spitalfields Market has been there for centuries and the
merchants in Mitre St.\Dukes Place\St. James Place have been
there since maybe 1830's* or earlier.The route to the market was
probably well-known,after Wentworth it's either Bell Lane or the
main road Commercial St.,or through Middlesex\Sandy Row,these
were the most direct and shortest routes.

*https://www.jeffreymaynard.com/Mayhew.htm

[Varqm]

More on Mitre St..There were a lot of trades people dealing with fruits,just like Spitalfields Market,in the street/area.Maybe the killer knew about the area.

-1882 Post Office directory

Mitre St. no's.
fruit merchants 12,15,17,22,32-33,
orange merchants 18,19,24,26-27,30,34
fruit salesman 21,28,29

St. James place no's.
fruit salesman 1,5,6,8 .
fruit merchants 2

-1884 business directory

Mitre St. no's.
20,22-23,31-32-33
6 mitre sq.

-1891 Kelly PO directory

Mitre St. no's.
fruit merchants 15,17,18,19,21,25,26,27,28,29-30-31-32,34
**orange merchants 19,26-27,34

St. James Pl
fruit salesman 1,5 and 6,8

One of the big fruit merchants from Mitre St. was the Isaacs family,who run M. Isaacs and Sons.
The grandfather Samuel 1765-1865,had a stall in a fruit market in Dukes Place,Aldgate.His son
Michael 1802-1880,born at 19 Mitre St.,turned part of the business into fruit importing dealing mainly
with Spain (oranges)* **.

The son Michael bore sons Henry 1831,and Joseph 1833 (census only).
Henry became a Governor of the Royal Hospitals**,in 1880-1883 Chairman of the Markets commitee**,
one of the directors of General Steam Navigation Company between 1881-1891,the ship company running a London to Hamburg and the Harwich to Hamburg*** routes.He also became alderman of the City Ward Portsoken in 1883,in 1886 or 87 one of 2 sherrifs of London and Middlesex - mostly for courts,1889 Lord Mayor.

Joseph mainly run the fruit company.There was an Isaacs Joseph and Sons in Spitalfields Market in 1882,1891 and in 1884 an Isaacs J and Sons 24-25-26 Middle Row Spitalfields Market,but I still do not know if related or a subsidiary,but M. Isaacs and Sons was the name always used.After 1900's a son became Chief Justice of England (1913–21),and Viceroy of India (1921–26),another was involved with Marconi(radio),later some corruption scandal ensued.


* As far as I know.
-1829 M. Issac & Co.,19 Mitre Street, Aldgate, London.
-1841 An Isaac Michael, imp. of foreign fruit,7 St. James Place (census)
-In 1851-1865 at least,the company was in 3 St James Place Aldgate.
-1875 Isaacs, M., & Sons (Ltd.). Steamship Agents, Moscow House,Eastcheap
-1888 Isaacs, M., & Sons (Ltd.). Steamship Agents, Moscow House,Eastcheap
-1889 St. George House,Eastcheap

**Men and Women of the Time 1891

https://books.google.com/books?id=8O...=PA491&amp ;amp;lpg =PA491&a mp;dq=Henry+Aaron+%27Michael%27+ISAACS+royal
+hospitals&source=bl&ots=I ZBgMIUI-l&sig=ACfU3U2TQywOMu1Erl9KQOyrz06A9-wkRw&hl=en&sa=X&am p;ved=2ahUKE wjI-
a7F143gAhUI0KwKHbWsCKoQ6AEwCXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&am p;am p;am p;q=Henry%20Aaron%20'Michael'%20ISAACS%20royal%20h ospitals&f=false

The New Hazell Annual 1890
https://books.google.com/books?id=_v...=PA343&amp ;amp;lpg =PA343&a mp;dq=m.+isaacs+and+son+fruit&source=b l&am p;amp;ot s=Bg-
ZCOKYhq&sig=ACfU3U3e_meowdpHQ4RUndvKu5 uJR1 myBQ &hl=en&sa=X&amp ;ve d=2ahUKEwizn Pq2r4_gAhUG0 KwKHdLODpQQ6AEwDnoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q= m.
%20isaacs%20and%20son%20fruit&f=false

***Harwich to Hamburg route,General Steam Navigation Company took over the route from H. J. Perlbach and Co. in 1888.

The first sailing was taken by the Hawk on 29 March 1888.

http://gala.gre.ac.uk/8535/4/Robert%20Edward%20Forrester%202006%20-%20Redacted.pdf

It commenced in April 1888 per Railway News July 21 1888.
https://books.google.com/books?id=SQ...=PA134&amp ;amp;lpg =PA134&a mp;dq=parkeston+quay+hamburg+steamers
+1888&source=bl&ots=lnj3Gr glMY&amp ;amp;sig=t0h QbuopVQJtRtBo0gd76yP4ul0&hl=en&amp ;amp;sa= X&ve d=2ahUKEwicvZmO-
b3fAhXLi60KHd4GBokQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&am p;am p;q= parkeston%20quay%20hamburg%20steamers%201888&a mp;a mp;f =false


The killer killed and run from a place known for fruits, Dukes Place/Mitre St./St. James Place,where they had a business for 36
years.He went directly from Goulston St. to Bell Lane to the market at the right time,2:20 AM-2:50 AM (PC Long),the market will be
busy at 2-3-4 AM,including setting things up.It's a conjecture,somebody maybe must/might have put 2 and 2 together.

[Varqm]

in my opinion Blotchy who returned as seen by Lewis)

I wonder, if Blotchy did return, it was because the heat was a bit too much in the Court ie: Cox, Prater and other residents coming and going at his first visit. It possible that he took the time to case the joint and feel at ease, especially since he was inside and felt comfortable coming back. That would make some sense because no-one saw MJK come out of her room after 1.00am and we know from Mary Cox that there was no light coming from MJK's room at 1.30am. So the only reasonable deduction is that Blotchy as JTR returned to MJK's room and as soon as she opened the door, he grabbed her and started to murder her in the usual JTR way. BUT- I don't think Blotchy was JTR.
He stood too much to lose when being seen by Cox as he walked up the Court with MJK. The killer must have surfaced some time after 3.00am, other wise I am certain that Cox could easily have been his next victim if he was earlier as she was in and out of the court between 1.00am and 3.00am. JTR killed whoever he came across first, unless Cox was standing somewhere that may have been too risky and also assuming she was soliciting. Prater heard the cry of "oh murder" after 3.30am. Did MJK come out of her room when Cox and Prater were snuggly tucked up, meet the Ripper on Dorset street, brought him home and was under attack in minutes. That is the real conundrum "Did Mary J Kelly come out of her room after 1.30am?" George Hutchison seems to think she did- Is there any paperwork about that records George describing What Mary was wearing on the morning he met her? Would the Police even think of asking him that? Mary Cox gave a good detailed description of both Blotchy and Kelly.

I won't talk about Hutch any more.From his mouth,he said he saw no one else,not Lewis.that's it.I agree with the Star Nov. 15,they moved on to Cox/Blotchy.

[Varqm]

It seems remarkable to me that potatoes would be shipped to America. I wonder if "sold to America" meant that US shipping lines, or perhaps the Navy, were buying produce locally to feed their sailors?

That's what he said,it's supply/demand.The 20000 tons,i think included packing/container used to hold them. Spitalfields Market was the no. 1 on potatoes in London market-wise.

[Wickerman]

and the fact that the murders happened on weekends and holidays and that the ripper obviously had money in his pocket to convince the victims that he could pay for there services.

Is that why Eddowes possessions were scattered around, she had pocketed his fee somewhere?
Chapman too?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

I don`t know if he`d need money in his pocket to convince the victims to walk with him.
Perhaps, the one`s who did need to see the cash up front, when he had none, escaped.

perhaps, but id imagine the prostitutes then were like they are now(street walkers of course-not sure how it works with the online stuff)-the first thing is to try and get the money up front and in there pocket before they do anything.

[Jon Guy]

and the fact that the murders happened on weekends and holidays and that the ripper obviously had money in his pocket to convince the victims that he could pay for there services.

Hi Abby

I don`t know if he`d need money in his pocket to convince the victims to walk with him.
Perhaps, the one`s who did need to see the cash up front, when he had none, escaped.

[Abby Normal]

Most people had professions, Simon
They may have been out of work frequently, but they generally described themselves as dockers, market workers, carmen, barbers, labourers, chestnut sellers, ships firemen. ...

and the fact that the murders happened on weekends and holidays and that the ripper obviously had money in his pocket to convince the victims that he could pay for there services.

[Jon Guy]

What facts lead anyone to believe that JtR had a day job?

Most people had professions, Simon
They may have been out of work frequently, but they generally described themselves as dockers, market workers, carmen, barbers, labourers, chestnut sellers, ships firemen. ...