JTR's profession

[Varqm]

Anyways last post.Someday Ill get it in a book and I'll name a name who JTR was (to me at elast 51% sure)

[Varqm]

--Each individual company had it's own anniversary/schedules/meeting but for all of them June 24, Sept 28,29, Nov 9 (including the Lord Mayor's show) were yearly "birthdays" and it did not enter somebody's mind, including some liverymen themselves , that JTR was probably a liverymen hitting 3 out of the 4 days/dates,in London to vote and take part or celebrate in the Lord Mayors show.Hard to believe.
JTR killed near the market,Hanbury St. and Dorset St. and running towards there in the double murder and it did not enter somebody's mind it may have to do with the newly formed fruit auction (at least March).Hard to believe.
JTR was relatively blatant, showing signs all over the place.It's hard to prove but some people have to know or knew.

Anyways just about my last post.

The September 28 sheriff's ceremony had been going on yearly for at least 336 years since 1552,although it started
earlier in the first half of 1500's,during Henry VIII's reign.*
The September 29 mayors election had been going on yearly for at least 340 years.**
The November 9 Lord mayor's show had been going on yearly for at least 136 years since 1752.***



*
These are the oldest I could find for now.

CHARLES WRIOTHESLEY
A CHRONICLE OF ENGLAND
DURING THE REIGNS OF THE TUDORS,
FROM A.D. 1485 TO 1559

https://books.google.com/books?id=eP...began+in+tudor
+times&source=bl&ots=08_bpJ7yY6&sig=ACfU3U3SxzAho0 HfkJzfUkK40O-8f3vx0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCk-O-
rOXiAhUFSK0KHaUnACkQ6AEwEXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=29& f=false

book page 76-77

-1552 sept. 28

"The 28 of September, Mr. John Maynard, mercer, was sworne
sheriffe with Mr. William Garret,b alderman, elected by my Lord
Mayor, and received i C t by the handes of Mr. Chamberlaine..."


**
book page 6

-1548 Sept. 29

Memorandum, on Michaelmas daie was chosen for Lord Maior of
the Citie of London Mr. Henrie Amcottes, alderman and fishmonger
of London.

***

The Lord Mayors show used to be October 29. It was changed to Nov 9 due to the 1750 New Calendar Act which changed
the use of the Julian to the Gregorian calendar.The use of January 1 started in 1752,
11 days were added to be in line with the equinoxes and solstices (??),so in the 1752 calendar Sept 2 jumped to Sept 14.

book page 6

-1548 *Oct 29

The Maior tooke his othe at the Tower.

This yeare, the morrowe after Simon and Judes daie*, the Lord
Maior tooke his oth at the Towre bacause the terme was proroged
till Crastino Animarum.

The Maiors feast.

This yeare the Maiors feast at the Guilde hall was serued with
one course. The higher tables for the Lord Maior and Ladies with
nyne dishes, and seaven dishes throughe the hall

*Simon and Judes daie - Oct 28

[Varqm]

FILM: PETICOAT LANE 1903:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smXKyg0Qk0g

Good film.

[Leanne]

FILM: PETICOAT LANE 1903:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smXKyg0Qk0g

[Leanne]

Film: East End Markets around 1900:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldcw8XEqYv8

[Varqm]

--Each individual company had it's own anniversary/schedules/meeting but for all of them June 24, Sept 28,29, Nov 8-9 (including the Lord Mayor's show) were yearly "birthdays" and it did not enter somebody's mind, including some liverymen themselves , that JTR was probably a liverymen hitting 3 out of the 4 days/dates,in London to vote and take part or celebrate in the Lord Mayors show.Hard to believe.
JTR killed near the market,Hanbury St. and Dorset St. and running towards there in the double murder and it did not enter somebody's mind it may have to do with the newly formed fruit auction (at least March).Hard to believe.
JTR was relatively blatant, showing signs all over the place.it's hard to prove but some people have to know or knew.

Anyways just about my last post.

[Varqm]

Every year,June 24,September 29,Nov.8 and Nov 9 were important dates for the
liverymen of London.

Sept. 28 was also a liverymen occasion,the elected sheriffs inauguration.

"The inaugural ceremony of the Sheriffs took place on Friday, the 28th ult., it being the last time that two Sheriffs
of London and Middlesex , elected by the livery in Common Hall , will be sworn in at the Guildhall. In 1889 there will
be a new departure, the City losing its ancient privilege of appointing a Sheriff of Middlesex. The honour of being
the last ot the old regime has thus fallen upon Mr. Alderman Gray and Bro. A. J. Newton , who were inducted into
the office with the usual ceremonial."

The Freemen
October 6 1888
https://masonicperiodicals.org/stati...001-SINGLE.pdf
page 577

Election of mayor on Saturday Sept 29.

"The election of a successor to Bro. Alderman De Keyser as Lord Mayor of London took place at a
Common Hall, held at the Guildhal l, on Saturday last, when Bro . Alderman Whitehead was chosen to fill the
office during the ensuing year. Bro. Lord Mayor De Keyser afterwards entertained the Lord Mayor elect at
dinner at the Mansion House."

Page 579

[Varqm]

There were 9000 liverymen in around 1897-8.

--There were 7728 liverymen in 1889 as listed in the Electoral registers in 1890.This also should be accurate as to 1888
since of the 12 month livery membership requirement .The list of of voters would have finished in July 1889 and if the
claim/franchise was in dispute it would have been listed by end of August and passed to the justice of the peace and to the
barristers who decided it by November.Although required by the 1832 reform Act (Sec. 48) to create a list of liverymen voters,at
their own expense,this list only appeared in the 1890 registers possibly because of the 1888 Local Gov't Act which made London
City a county and the area covered by the Metropolitan Board of Works (abolished in 1889) turned into it's own London County.
Gladstone,Coroner Baxter , all the mayors were liverymen.

[Varqm]

-In 1851-1865 at least,the company was in 3 St James Place Aldgate.

--This is partly wrong.The Isaacs was leasing 3 St. James Place (behind Heneage Lane,as there were three 3 St. James Place, the others were
behind Sugar Baker's Yard and Duke St) from 1870 until 1887.The lease was transferred to a James Norris Pimm,an envelope maker,and the
occupant in 1888 was a Zalic Morris Mordecai,first cousin of the soon-to-be 1889 Lord Mayor Henry Isaacs.It was occupied by tHnry's uncle from 1881 (census) possibly until 1887.It was described as a shop and dwelling in the 1887 Goad map.It was a warehouse and empty or no occupier was listed from 1889-1891.Zalic's dad Moses died in early 1888.Moses occupied 5,6,7,8 St. James place(Heneage side) around 1870's and 5,6 around 1880's and his wife Kate until 1891.Most of St. james Place and Mitre St. were owned by the Corporation of London.
Henry also had a cloths mart on Great Still alley or Still alley nearly across from the corner of St. Mary Axe and Houndstitch near Phils Building,and which had a pathway to the old clothes market in Borers Passage.

[Michael W Richards]

Depending on which point in time you choose within that 2 1/2 month period you will find different skill level profiles that the investigators assumed. Bond is responsible for the opinion that the killer did not even possess butcher skill, but that was based on the single body he saw and the reports. Phillips saw something else, and he examined 4 of the Canonical Five in person. The fact remains that at one point, in September, they sought out medically trained and skilled individuals with known mental issues.

That proves that just after Annie Chapman they regarded this killer as likely a medical student or practitioner. Its no wonder this opinion degraded to the point where Bond would make that kind of pronouncement after Mary Kelly...there is no subsequent murder within the immediate Canonical Five or after them that appears as if they were performed with any skill or training. Or abdominal focus...save Alice. But Mary Kelly in particular was a sloppy bit of work and hardly "professional".

[Varqm]

Started already on perhaps Aug 7 (Tabram) and the end of the month August 31
and Sept 8,so it seems it was a concidence but maybe it was related.
Every year,June 24,September 29,Nov.8 and Nov 9 were important dates for the
liverymen of London.Liverymen did a lot for charity,almhouses,asylums,orphanage,
hospitals,schools,member's family,etc. and upheld the standards of their trades.***
There were 9000 liverymen in around 1897-8.


More on Liverymen/elections:

Admission to the Livery

Only those who are already Freemen of the Company and Freemen of the City of London can apply to move up into full membership of the Company and become a Liveryman.*
Before a Freeman and Liveryman of London is entitled to Vote, he must be upon Livery Twelve Calendar Months, and have paid his Livery
Fines, and shall not within Two Years have been discharged from paying any of the Rates or Taxes payable by the Citizens of London, or
within that Time have received any Alms whatsoever.**

The lord mayor sent a summons to the master of each livery company requiring
him to notify the liverymen to attend Guildhall, wearing their livery gowns. The beadle of each company was supposed to prevent anyone
not of the livery from attending.*
The full style of this Court is the meeting or assembly of the mayor, aldermen, and liverymen of the several companies of the City of
London in common hall.It meets at the Guildhall twice a year,on 24th June and 29th September.The elections are by show of hands, or,
if demanded, by poll, under the City of London Ballot Act, 1887.** Elections finished by noon.

The sheriffs are elected for a one year term of office by the liverymen....each Midsummer Day (24th June)...*

The Lord Mayor is elected on 29th September,in common hall, by the liverymen - they nominate two aldermen for whom the Court of
Aldermen (26 wards in 1888,1 each) selects a Lord Mayor. The mayor is admitted and sworn in on 8th November, and on that day presented to the Lord Chancellor. On 9th November he is presented to the High Court in lieu of the justiciar and the old Court of Exchequer, on which his induction into office is complete.**

page 397
***https://books.google.com/books?id=bj...+London+livery
+shipwrights&source=bl&ots=vt-
17E0CyV&sig=ACfU3U0cSut8KMWwpC_RllAGAHNZ5beUpw&hl= en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rZ3Rnt3gAhUBCKwKHa6hCXAQ6AEw A HoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Report
%20and%20Appendix%20...%20By%20Great%20Britain.%20 London%20livery%20shipwrights&f=false

*https://www.spectaclemakers.com/Memb...to-the-Livery/

**page 27
https://books.google.com/books?id=mE...id+not+receive
+aolms&source=bl&ots=DG5u_PPxMU&sig=ACfU3U0gMyt-
yNshzsZSvbEBR6lwbKzvwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs4qG 2rNzgAhVIba0KHZoOBiIQ6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=li veryman%20london%20who%20did%20not%20receive%20aol ms&f=false


*http://leh.ncl.ac.uk/PDF's/LEH-Franc...-OF-LONDON.pdf

**page 403
https://books.google.com/books?id=SU...7+29+September
+1888&source=bl&ots=Ee95f8CmB8&sig=ACfU3U0v7VIkSYg fAkr6NPYsayoej1pbJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKlIPO39 PgAhUH7awKHfBVDkwQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Micha elmas%20'Common%20Hall'%2029%20Sep tember%201888&f=false

*http://www.liverycompanies.info/fell...eriff-matters/

**page 399
https://books.google.com/books?id=SU...7+29+September
+1888&source=bl&ots=Ee95f8CmB8&sig=ACfU3U0v7VIkSYg fAkr6NPYsayoej1pbJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKlIPO39 PgAhUH7awKHfBVDkwQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Micha elmas%20'Common%20Hall'%2029%20Sep tember%201888&f=false


_____page 403 39 397 above - based on 1898 London city london county w. f. craies.*
https://books.google.com/books?id=_D...ots=8kr_mu4h5-
&sig=ACfU3U0s6a6sl3WYLN044hY_7k3gPX1VnA&hl=en&s a=X &ved=2ahUKEwitrtCXrN3gAhVBWqwKHfyTCFAQ6AEwCnoEC AcQ AQ#v=onepage&q=%20w.%20f.%20craies&f=false

[Varqm]

--The Joseph and Son 24-25-26 row Spitalfields Market salesmen were not part of M. Isaacs and Sons.There was Joseph sen and jun who
lived in another/different part of London.

--The picture of the Spitalfields Flower market in a previous post was wrong.The Flower Market on the north side of Lamb Street was
built by the Corporation to the design of Victor Wilkins and opened on 6 June 1935.*

The 1888 Flower Market was beside the Commercial St. East entrance.The 1890 Goad plan of it was about 60 ft x 60 ft,based on 1 inch - 40 ft scale and widths of Brushfield/Commercial streets, and the height was 35 ft "to the eaves".**

*https://www.british-history.ac.uk/su...ol27/pp127-147

Chas E Goad Limited
**http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlin...ify150907.html

[APerno]

What about doctors who've served on battlefields? Obviously they're not cutting throats, but amputating arms and legs, and doing it quickly and efficiently as possible so as to get on to the next one, is pretty much battlefield surgery for most of the Victorian Age. I can't imagine there's a lot of difference in the practical issues of cutting a throat to the bone vs. cutting a thigh to the bone.

I definitely see you point here, it wasn't that long before that surgeons were not even considered doctors (Napoleonic Wars), and no doubt without anesthesia the best surgeons were those that acted fastest, but I offer two points in reverse:

the cutting of the throat in the manner it was done with these victims, would be more easily achieved by the practiced hand of a butcher, who even with just few years of experience would have slit a thousand throats . . . then you add in all the commonly pointed to issues, the dark and allotted time available; a throat is still different than a leg or arm, and most of that work was done with a saw

the removal of the the organs, in particular Dark Annie's uterus IMHO was not an act of 'surgery' - having sliced through both the bladder and vagina, again resembles more the practiced hand of a butcher quickly dressing an animal than it does the gentle hand of a surgeon removing an organ during autopsy; I believe in the end (not completely sure here) that the team lead by a Doctor Brown eventually dismissed Dr. Phillips claim that anatomical knowledge (of a human) was necessary to complete the act

I would like to add I feel either way it was a practiced hand at work, Polly's was not the first throat this man slit.

[Ginger]

I never understood the 'doctor' claim. Doctors make gentle, precision cuts with a scalpel and would be just as incompetent as we are when it comes to slashing a throat.

What about doctors who've served on battlefields? Obviously they're not cutting throats, but amputating arms and legs, and doing it quickly and efficiently as possible so as to get on to the next one, is pretty much battlefield surgery for most of the Victorian Age. I can't imagine there's a lot of difference in the practical issues of cutting a throat to the bone vs. cutting a thigh to the bone.

[Abby Normal]

Isn't that more or less what I said, Abby, apart from the 'gain' motive?

I'm just not sure how Hutch would have thought to 'gain' from inventing a suspect the police would never find. My take is that if he felt obliged to admit he was there, at least up to around 3am, it would have been safer for him to describe a man who was inside with the deceased all that time, whether he actually saw that man or not.

Love,

Caz
X

ok gotcha.