IWEC members

[GBinOz]

PC Smith, and probably Packer, saw Stride with a man with a parcel, who had in all likelihood been with her all night. Smith saw them opposite the IWEC at around 12:35 police time. Where was Parcelman after that?

1. He had said his good byes and went on his way. Stride was then standing in the gateway either soliciting or waiting to start a cleaning job in the club.

2. Parcelman was in the club premises, either in the loo or conducting some business in the club, and Stride was waiting for him to return.

Are there other alternatives?

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

I think its fair to say that what I believe actually happened was not what was represented by some of the senior staff alumni. The fact that people lower on the club totem pole had statements that in some cases dramatically contrasted what was said by the senior staffers might delineate the "need to know" line.

I'm fine with all this, however you have to some extent dodged the question; why anyone didn't report seeing someone go outside in the period leading up to the discovery, return inside and go to the sink and wash a knife. To quote Mrs D again:

[I]Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.[/I]

Was she lying by omission?

I think in some cases just a quick word to some co-clubbers, "remember, you didnt see or hear anything"...might have been enough to feel they are protecting themselves. They knew what the Police and local neighbours thought of them, and they knew this situation could go bad for them without some defensive posturing.

Would she dress for work the same way she would for a date?

She was a house cleaner, Im sure she also did some laundry and such, and perhaps cooking..but it was for familys in a family setting. This is the big time for a house cleaner, a meeting hall where 200 people gathered, drank, ate, and left it in a mess. Perhaps she wanted to make a good first impression. Or, she had a date.

No one at the crime scene admitted to recognising the victim (other than PC Smith). Had Stride been in the habit of going to the club to work, in the weeks preceding the murder, it would be reasonable to suppose that club members would have recognised her, and possibly a neighbour like Fanny, who knew a lot a faces (but not Goldstein's, suggesting he was a recent arrival).

Im not suggesting that this location was a regular gig at all, I think her recent work "among the Jews" in that area might have led her to this opportunity. Im sure it paid better than cleaning a few rooms.

As you mention, the club event ended around 11:30 (or as late as midnight). When Stride was spotted by PC Smith after 12:30, was she just arriving for work, or on a break, or on her way home, or something else? If that something else was a date, what sort of date has the woman standing outside a men's club, with the man holding a paper bag?

That sighting confirms that Liz is in the immediate area of the club maybe 30-45 minutes after the meeting broke up. She is not passing by, she seems to be there for a reason. A cleaning job would be one reason. I believe the man holding the parcel is probably holding a packet of Arbeter Fraints hot off the press.

Its a line of thought worth examining, in my opinion.

[Michael W Richards]

We have to be careful with why didn't X see Y? thinking.
What is generally meant is; X is not quoted in the press as seeing Y, but probably should have.
X may have indeed seen Y, but one of the following occurred.

X saw Y but:

• forgot about it
• didn't mention it to a reporter
• the reporter didn't record it
• the reported left it out of their report
• it was included in the report but was edited out

Fanny may have seen Eagle. She may have seen the young couple. Eagle may have seen Lave. He may have seen Stride with Parcelman. What's in the press reports and what was seen, are different things.

My comments about these story and detail discrepancies are to illustrate that when sorted out, the most problematic statements come from people who would be the most personally impacted by any trouble for the club, operators or employees. Attendees have no agenda, they saw what they saw and heard what they did. Omission or falsehoods are simple ways of deflecting suspicion. It strains reason to imagine that multiple people claiming to be somewhere at a given point in time are less trustworthy than someone who claims the actual time is 20min later than all 3 previous statements claimed. Why should we give him credence? Oh right, hes the steward, a man in charge..so to speak. Why would he fib? Ive answered that question a bunch of times...because if this event turned bad for the club it would have been closed. People losing jobs, maybe accommodations too. To protect themselves, they "saw or heard nothing, Officer."

Eagle didnt see Lave, he saw no-one. Lave didnt see Eagle, he saw an empty street. No-one saw anyone in the passageway, though we have historical data that suggests "low men" would gather and smoke in that passageway after meetings until after 1am some Saturdays. Funny that there apparently wasnt a single smoker there than night. The people in the cottages were awake, but heard nothing. Mrs D's kitchen door was a ajar...when is a door not a door....yet she heard nothing. Wess saw an empty street when he left, Lave comes to the gate and sees nothing, Eagle walks past Lave and they dont see each other, Mrs D likely sees Eagle enter and go upstairs, he doesnt mention a body because the body will be there around 12:46 to 12:56..but he also doesnt mention Lave or Liz Stride herself..where do we believe she went after Smith leaves? Even if she is on the street, why didnt Eagle see her? The reality is that he would have seen her. And Lave.

[Michael W Richards]

PC Smith, and probably Packer, saw Stride with a man with a parcel, who had in all likelihood been with her all night. Smith saw them opposite the IWEC at around 12:35 police time. Where was Parcelman after that?

1. He had said his good byes and went on his way. Stride was then standing in the gateway either soliciting or waiting to start a cleaning job in the club.

2. Parcelman was in the club premises, either in the loo or conducting some business in the club, and Stride was waiting for him to return.

Are there other alternatives?

Cheers, George

Smith said he last saw her at 12:35, Wess said he left about half past 12...might Wess be Parcelman? Or someone from the printing shoppe in the yard? It is interesting that Liz talks with him...if strangers on the street near 1am, a "good evening" would be the extent of an exchange. She knows him. From the club? Or maybe from her cleaning jobs, "among the Jews"?

Full disclosure...I think its possible her date was the returning Morris Eagle. If not there to clean. But I think she may have been waiting for someone to come back out of the club, as I said, if a date. The date idea is more powerful when considering her attitude when leaving the doss house...it appears she intended to be out all night. Lint brush request, fabric piece entrusted....

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle is said to have tumbled down the stairs "pell mell" when he heard of a dying woman in the passageway..and he also mentions that he feared the sight of blood. Was he concerned it was the woman he saw in the passageway when he came in the gates, and maybe the woman waiting for him? I wonder if he returned for his speakers pay after taking home his "first" date that night. Just speculating. No need for alarm.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My comments about these story and detail discrepancies are to illustrate that when sorted out, the most problematic statements come from people who would be the most personally impacted by any trouble for the club, operators or employees. Attendees have no agenda, they saw what they saw and heard what they did. Omission or falsehoods are simple ways of deflecting suspicion. It strains reason to imagine that multiple people claiming to be somewhere at a given point in time are less trustworthy than someone who claims the actual time is 20min later than all 3 previous statements claimed. Why should we give him credence? Oh right, hes the steward, a man in charge..so to speak. Why would he fib? Ive answered that question a bunch of times...because if this event turned bad for the club it would have been closed. People losing jobs, maybe accommodations too. To protect themselves, they "saw or heard nothing, Officer."

Eagle didnt see Lave, he saw no-one. Lave didnt see Eagle, he saw an empty street. No-one saw anyone in the passageway, though we have historical data that suggests "low men" would gather and smoke in that passageway after meetings until after 1am some Saturdays. Funny that there apparently wasnt a single smoker there than night. The people in the cottages were awake, but heard nothing. Mrs D's kitchen door was a ajar...when is a door not a door....yet she heard nothing. Wess saw an empty street when he left, Lave comes to the gate and sees nothing, Eagle walks past Lave and they dont see each other, Mrs D likely sees Eagle enter and go upstairs, he doesnt mention a body because the body will be there around 12:46 to 12:56..but he also doesnt mention Lave or Liz Stride herself..where do we believe she went after Smith leaves? Even if she is on the street, why didnt Eagle see her? The reality is that he would have seen her. And Lave.

Eagle saw no one?

C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

What about Wess?

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
C: Did you see no one nearer?
W: No, sir.

We can never be sure if either man saw others in the street or not.

... Mrs D likely sees Eagle enter and go upstairs, he doesnt mention a body because the body will be there around 12:46 to 12:56..but he also doesnt mention Lave or Liz Stride herself..where do we believe she went after Smith leaves? Even if she is on the street, why didnt Eagle see her? The reality is that he would have seen her. And Lave.

This is an important issue which can easily be avoided by asserting that Eagle's timing was a guesstimate, so he probably got it wrong and as a result missed seeing Stride. Okay, but what about Lave, Mortimer, the young couple, and earlier, Charles Letchford? How many times can the "times are estimates" excuse be made, even if witness times are estimates?

As for Lave, perhaps he was too early?...

I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

What time is about 20 minutes before the alarm, as far as he is concerned? If the body was discovered well before 1am as you claim, then 20 minutes prior means he would like miss seeing Eagle, so there would be no issue there.

[Michael W Richards]

Eagle saw no one?

C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

What about Wess?

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
C: Did you see no one nearer?
W: No, sir.

We can never be sure if either man saw others in the street or not.



This is an important issue which can easily be avoided by asserting that Eagle's timing was a guesstimate, so he probably got it wrong and as a result missed seeing Stride. Okay, but what about Lave, Mortimer, the young couple, and earlier, Charles Letchford? How many times can the "times are estimates" excuse be made, even if witness times are estimates?

As for Lave, perhaps he was too early?...

I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

What time is about 20 minutes before the alarm, as far as he is concerned? If the body was discovered well before 1am as you claim, then 20 minutes prior means he would like miss seeing Eagle, so there would be no issue there.

There are the witness provided times, and the estimated times based on how palatable they are to the individual reader. We do in fact have specific times given by some witnesses, they are not offered as "approximate" times.

Ive made some suggestions that some men gave information that they knew was false, and that these particular men also happen to be the men most responsible for the conduct of the club. IF...big IF...Israel did see something very like what is recorded that Sunday night but saw it within the passageway, that would sure go a long way to accepting they might have done some damage control. Not very well, considering some statements made by club attendees directly contradict their own statements, but perhaps that is representative of the nature of this damage control, only a few men...the most responsible....discussed this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There are the witness provided times, and the estimated times based on how palatable they are to the individual reader. We do in fact have specific times given by some witnesses, they are not offered as "approximate" times.

Lave was not one of those. He gave a timing relative to the alarm of murder. He is not recorded as stating what time he supposed that alarm to be.

Ive made some suggestions that some men gave information that they knew was false, and that these particular men also happen to be the men most responsible for the conduct of the club. IF...big IF...Israel did see something very like what is recorded that Sunday night but saw it within the passageway, that would sure go a long way to accepting they might have done some damage control. Not very well, considering some statements made by club attendees directly contradict their own statements, but perhaps that is representative of the nature of this damage control, only a few men...the most responsible....discussed this.

Schwartz (who you've linked to the club), gave a time of ~12:45. Goldstein, in Swanson's report, was about 1am. Which, if either of these was known to be false when stated?

[Michael W Richards]

Lave stated to the press that night that he went out at 12:40 to get air and was there, just in the street, for what he says was "........about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions" Clearly he is either mistaken, or misleading. That timing does not work at all when married with other statements. I believe Lave lived in one of the passageway cottages. Did some photography for the club.

In another thread I just suggested that if Israel Schwartz' story had him leaving the club by the side door at around the same time he said it was, and that he did see Liz with someone mistreating her, just inside the passageway slightly behind the open gate by the wall, ...then there would be a few more answers to the questions that are currently unknowns.

I think due to the size of the meeting that night.. maybe based on the original anticipation that the speaker would be William Morris, they might have had several close members of the club helping out. Maybe even security, some local bully. He could be BSM.

[Michael W Richards]

Part of the problem here is that there are multiple, various timing storylines with very few crossover validations to go with them. When faced with this I just figure that you need to try and get a sense of who the people are, why they were where they were, and whether there are factors at play that could affect how they present their evidence to the police. Does anyone have agendas?

A club that can be filled with local, poor, Jewish immigrant Socialists that had been experiencing antisemitism and hatred from the communities they packed into. Including the police. So...defensive...maybe? It was said that a Jewish witness refused to identify a suspect because of their shared faith, what kind of bond existed between some club attendees that night. Eagle, Lave, Schwartz, Wess, Goldstein (in passing), and Diemshitz. If the first man to find Liz Stride saw no-one else around then the chances are high that someone on the premises did this. She is found inside the gates after all. Some 17 people lived in the house on Hanbury where Annie is slaughtered, you have to assume that the police wanted to talk to them first. The same thing goes for Berner Street, there were some 20 people still there that night.

[Michael W Richards]

The Evening News printed a letter to the editor on September 11, 3 weeks before Liz Strides murder, and the authour G.H.H. had this to say about local treatment of the Jewish immigrants...."I found it difficult to traverse the streets in the vicinity of the Whitechapel, without observing in almost every thoroughfare , knots of persons (consisting of men, women and children), and overhearing their slanderous and insulting remarks towards the Jews, who occasionally passed by. With justice to my countrymen, I mention that the foul epithets was made use of by people of the most ignorant and dangerous class, promoted by the information they had casually obtained that a man known as "Leather Apron" had a Jewish appearance, and was wanted for the recent Whitechapel murders. Even were it the case that the actual perpetrator belonged to the Hebrew class, is it not cowardly and unjust that in the extreme to calumniate a sect for the sins of one? Spotless indeed would be the flock entirely minus of black sheep. The Jew predominates in the neighbourhood where I am and have been residing for years, but notwithstanding the crimes committed by the members of our so- called Christian race average at least 99 per cent, in excess of those imputed by the Jews."

It was a societal problem, the massive influx of Jewish Immigrants to the already bursting East End caused some serious animosity with the gentile locals. Its no wonder we find grafitto like the kind found in Goulston. But on the night it is found, might it be directly related to the crime on Berner Street, and evidence that whoever killed Kate was to some degree antisemitic? "The Juwes/Jews/Jewes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing", is that a reference to the Jewish club attendees and their suggestion to anyone who could listen that "another" murder has been committed? Were they evading blame, or did the author of the GSG believe that was the case?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lave stated to the press that night that he went out at 12:40 to get air and was there, just in the street, for what he says was "........about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions" Clearly he is either mistaken, or misleading. That timing does not work at all when married with other statements. I believe Lave lived in one of the passageway cottages. Did some photography for the club.

I'm sorry Michael, you caught me napping. Lave does indeed give absolute (clock) times in some press reports. By those times there is a good chance he would have seen Stride at the gateway. Therefore, Lave probably has to be dismissed to maintain belief in the story told by Schwartz, and that is exactly what some members have done.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sorry Michael, you caught me napping. Lave does indeed give absolute (clock) times in some press reports. By those times there is a good chance he would have seen Stride at the gateway. Therefore, Lave probably has to be dismissed to maintain belief in the story told by Schwartz, and that is exactly what some members have done.

Laves statement places him where he could have, and would have, seen Morris return and all of what Israels Schwartz says he saw, all the people and the action, yet he didnt. So yes, Lave isnt telling the truth and needs to be set aside. Not saying he is dismissable because he didnt see Israel, but because he didnt see Eagle and Israel.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Laves statement places him where he could have, and would have, seen Morris return and all of what Israels Schwartz says he saw, all the people and the action, yet he didnt. So yes, Lave isnt telling the truth and needs to be set aside. Not saying he is dismissable because he didnt see Israel, but because he didnt see Eagle and Israel.

Yet he didn't see him, or yet he didn't see him, but really did? As only the second (sort of) makes sense, I assume you mean that. So, what did Lave say that is incompatible with him seeing Eagle?

[Michael W Richards]

Yet he didn't see him, or yet he didn't see him, but really did? As only the second (sort of) makes sense, I assume you mean that. So, what did Lave say that is incompatible with him seeing Eagle?

The obvious, he didnt mention seeing him. Nor did Eagle mention Lave. Nor did either of them mention seeing Liz. I believe that there is a perception that is being constructed here, one that suggests that the passageway was empty that last half hour. That virtually eliminates suggestion that the killer came from that property. My contention is that we have the "Three Wise Monkeys" approach used to protect the club from suspicion. Israel Schwartz, likely translated for by Woolf Wess, gave them just the out they needed later that night..an off site assailant, likely antisemitic, surly and dangerous.

The matter of how she dies doesnt exclude anyone with a knife and extremely bad manners, so anyone nearby could have done it...not someone skilled or trained or particularly knowledgeable. That makes the 30 or so singing socialists prime suspect fodder. Proximity. They needed a strategy.

And that is evident I think when you see two club affiliates who were there not seeing each other though there at the same stated time. "We are just law abiding Socialists officer, no-one heard or saw anything or anyone sir"

Of course we see quite different manners in the coming Spring, when they club policemen in that very yard.