IWEC members

[Joshua Rogan]

According to the East London Observer 6th Oct,

"Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time.....heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street."

This makes it seem like Heshburg was a member of the club, but I can't see anything in the interview he gives to confirm that he was - To me he speaks like he's an outsider, not a member. The Irish Times 1st Oct seems to be the most complete account;

"In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

Thoughts?

[Michael W Richards]

According to the East London Observer 6th Oct,

"Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time.....heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street."

This makes it seem like Heshburg was a member of the club, but I can't see anything in the interview he gives to confirm that he was - To me he speaks like he's an outsider, not a member. The Irish Times 1st Oct seems to be the most complete account;

"In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

Thoughts?

I think on the whole Heschberg says he "came down" from upstairs, where most if not all the remaining members were at the time Stride appears in the passageway. I believe his knowledge of the club, his lack of knowledge about Louis and his role there, and his comments which do not specifically link him as a member, indicate he attended the club and the meeting that night. It was open to anyone with an admittance fee.

[Michael W Richards]

According to Sugden's "Complete History", Leon Goldstein - the man with the black bag seen by Fanny Mortimer - was a member of the club. Can anyone confirm this, or know where he got this from?

Leon Goldstein had empty cigarette cartons, used by cigarette makers to package their hand rolled products. There were cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway, awake at the time of the murder and discovery. I believe Leon intended to deliver his empty cartons to the men who waited for him in the cottages, but was probably waived on past as he looked into the yard, by gathering members crowding around Stride.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think on the whole Heschberg says he "came down" from upstairs, where most if not all the remaining members were at the time Stride appears in the passageway. I believe his knowledge of the club, his lack of knowledge about Louis and his role there, and his comments which do not specifically link him as a member, indicate he attended the club and the meeting that night. It was open to anyone with an admittance fee.

I'm not sure the club was open to anyone. According to Wess, any working man of any nationality could be proposed, but only if they were known to be a supporter of the socialist movement. You might think Heshburg would know what sort of club it was, rather than having to "suppose it was a Socialist club". So I don't think it was a case of simply paying at the door. The only mention I can think of is the Echo report where the club suggests charging people entrance to view the murder site.
Yes, Heshburg says he "came down", though I believe no.28 where he lived had an upstairs, not only the club.
But the most obvious thing pointing to him not being in the club at the time of the murder is the fact that he says it was the sound of police whistles which alerted him. If he was at the club, surely he would have noticed all the other members rushing outside?

[Joshua Rogan]

William West says in his inquest evidence that he left the club with his brother, so presumably he too was a member. West also says that another member, named Louis Stansley, left with them.

Eagle says that a member named Jacobs and another ran off looking for police.

[Joshua Rogan]

Leon Goldstein had empty cigarette cartons, used by cigarette makers to package their hand rolled products. There were cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway, awake at the time of the murder and discovery. I believe Leon intended to deliver his empty cartons to the men who waited for him in the cottages, but was probably waived on past as he looked into the yard, by gathering members crowding around Stride.

Interesting possibility, but it relies on Louis arriving before Leon. Yet Fanny says she saw Goldstein walk by, and only afterwards heard Diemschutz's cart go by.

[Joshua Rogan]

William West says in his inquest evidence that he left the club with his brother, so presumably he too was a member. West also says that another member, named Louis Stansley, left with them.

Eagle says that a member named Jacobs and another ran off looking for police.

The Daily News has the member who left with Wess and his brother as "Lewis Selzi".

Was William West actually Wolf Wess, as the witness page says, or was this his brother?

[Joshua Rogan]

A plethora of biographies and obituaries confirm that Woolf Wess was indeed William West. I still can't find a name for the brother though.

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Sugden's "Complete History", Leon Goldstein - the man with the black bag seen by Fanny Mortimer - was a member of the club. Can anyone confirm this, or know where he got this from?

Found it!
Daily News 3rd Oct '88

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory"

[DJA]

A plethora of biographies and obituaries confirm that Woolf Wess was indeed William West. I still can't find a name for the brother though.

Might not be much help,however William West was listed with relatives named Louise and Saul Yauoff in the 1891 Census.

Guess where ....... Brady Street!

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Dave, every little helps!

[jerryd]

Joshua,

I just sent you a PM regarding Wess.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Jon. I was about to ask you how you know, but it says so on Krantz's witness page;

"Born Jacob Rombro in 1859 in Podolia, Russia. After fleeing the pogroms of 1881 he spent some time in Paris before coming to London and changing his name. Editor of Arbeter Fraint ('Worker's Friend')"

Interesting article about Der Arbeter Fraint, which says of Krantz:

Philip Kranz was appointed its first editor, (until 1889 when as a social democrat he broke with the anarchists and left for New York); gathering a group of bright young Jewish writers: eg Benjamin Feigenbaum, obsessed with debunking religion, who wrote anti-religious satires for the paper.

Wikipedia says of Feigenbaum:

As a young socialist in 1887, Feigenbaum considered starting a socialist Yiddish newspaper. To his delight, he discovered the newly created London-based Arbeter Fraynd, contacting them immediately. Towards the end of 1888, Feigenbaum moved to London, UK with his wife, to join their editorial board.

Conceivably Feigenbaum was at the club on September 30.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I was wondering how it was known that Jacob Rombro (aka Philip Krantz) was a social democrat rather an anarchist, who left for New York in 1889. See this post ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162192#post162192

Der Arbeter Fraint was published at 5pm on Friday's ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162154#post162154

So, on the Saturday night in the hours leading up to the double event, Rombro was hard at work in the editor's office preparing the next edition of the paper. Although he seems to have had the company of a female - Yaffa.

Here's a mass meeting poster - for Dec 28 '89 - produced in the printing office. The speakers list includes Wess, Feigenbaum, and Goldstein.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162119#post162119

[Michael W Richards]

Isaac Kozebrodski

I Think this chap could be Isaac Kozebrodski ?

Isaac Moses Broder born c 1855 Bryezan, Galicia ....Jewellry traveller
living at 17 East Mount street Whitechapel in 1891 with wife Fanny (Levy) and children They married in England.1878, London City

Mostly called himself Moses or Morris Broder In census and naturalisation records. In 1881 he was in Glasgow census...

I read he was known as Isaac M Kozebrodsky on these boards

Pat.....

I believe Issac Kozebrodski, (often suggested as being known as "Issacs" by some...which is disputed by some others), was something in the neighbourhood of seventeen at the time of the crime. So a BC for 1855 would be a no go.