The Double Event

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael

I agree entirely



Best wishes

Phil

[Robert St Devil]

hello michael

i can see similarities between liz and polly, but they are peculiar points...

...both were found on the east side of the east end
...both were found at the gateways of yards
...both had their necks cut in the same direction but neither had any organs removed
...both were murdered closer to the public where the mystery is how the crime went undetected. CE&K were killed in relatively more private locations

the ,,i,m not sure,, points...
...both had bruising on their face
...both were found with their bonnets besides their body, possibly placed
...both were found with the top of their dresses undone
...noone attributed the detail of ornamentation to either woman as in the cases of chapman, eddowes and kelly. iow liz and polly,s murderer didn,t pocket-rifle thru their belongings, no taking of rings. liz, pocket is full of items even

fathoming two killers is tough for me at the present, but for the sake of entertainment - had their been a ,,from hell,, killer and a ,,dear boss,, killer - it would be something to know if the woman spoken of in the ,,dear boss,, letter was polly nicholls, and the reason metro only found a wineglass worth of blood was that her killer collected a quantity in a ginger beer bottle.

[Sam Flynn]

i can see similarities between liz and polly, but they are peculiar points...

...both were found on the east side of the east end
...both were found at the gateways of yards

I don't think we can read much significance into the compass reading; the sites of all the murders were within a fairly short walk of one another... and we could waspishly suggest that Eddowes was found at the eastern boundary of the City of London.

Re gateways, Eddowes' head was only a few feet away from a gate/entrance behind which was a passage running parallel to a yard; Chapman's body was only inches away from a back door, parallel with and almost touching a wooden fence.

...both had their necks cut in the same direction but neither had any organs removed

Well, Polly's abdomen was severely slashed, which suggests strongly that there was an intention to eviscerate. We can't quite claim the same for Stride.

...both were murdered closer to the public where the mystery is how the crime went undetected. CE&K were killed in relatively more private locations.

Kelly certainly, but Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes were definitely killed in more public areas - albeit Mitre Square was rather quieter than the other open-air murder sites.

[Robert St Devil]

hello sam. i don,t believe that we have ,spoken, before, so thank you for the response. Apologies in advance for the argument, but... well, it,s Casebook Forums afterall. still your view points are respected.

i,m going between the recent conversations re: The Ripper being the Torso Killer, and MWR,s comments that liz, murder does NOT resemble Jack,s work. To a point, i can concur, but i don,t see stride,s murder being isolated from all of the others in terms of resemblance.

i can buy into Chapman, Eddowes & Kelly being committed by the same murderer... with a high probability that criminal was the Torso Killer. The 3 women share the abdominal mutilations for the purpose of organ harvesting and other points.

However i,ve noticed before that liz and polly appeared more like pedestrian efforts on jack,s part comparitively speaking... and that may extend to Tabram, Mylett, McKenzie and Cole. Most of my assertion is based on scenes of the crimes and victim profile.

POLLY,S MUTILATIONS
Her abdomen was attacked, true; however, the cuts aren,t described in a manner that supports an attempt to harvest her organs. They resemble Frances, cuts; possiby sexual in nature but without any [intention, focus, purpose]. From the post mortem reports, the cuts seem haphazard.

YARDS & GUTTERS
My apologies. I wasn,t focusing on how the women,s head were near gates. More that the word YARD appears with his ,lesser, murders - George, Brown, Dutfield. And, a notice that the blood of these women tends to flow into gutters, Cole included.

BONNETS & BLOUSES
The idea is, the killer removed the bonnet of Nicholls and Stride (like Cole) and placed beside the body... unlike Chapman. And the blouse was loosened at the top. My assumption is, this action removed any obstacles while cutting her throat.

LEGS AKIMBO
I don,t have a clear idea of how Chapman,s legs were positioned, but Eddowes and Kelly,s legs were positioned in a diamond configuration... unlike Nicholls or Stride.

PROSTITUTION
Strong cases can be made that Tabram, Nicholls & Stride were performing a hooking style of prostitution on the nights that they were murdered. It,s typically CE&K that drives these forum on whether or not they were pros in the first place.

SCHOOLS (* a speculation)
I don,t know about George Yard; weren,t there schools located across from the Nicholls and Stride murder sites. Personally, i must confess that i have no suspect. Still,wouldn,t a school make for a good bolthole if you were someone like Montague Druitt (if he had access to the schools)? Again, my apologies for the speculation, but i got to wondering if his sexual misconduct was based on his use of prostitutes rather than homosexuality.

PRIVACY
It,s going to take me awhile to determine what i meant by CE&K,s murders being ,,private,,... for now, their locations seemed deliberately remote for obvious reasons. Jack knew how much time he would need on average to remove the organs. Nicholls and Stride,s murder sites were not entirely secluded, happening or practically happening on the street.

Again, thanks for the response, and i look forward to talking with you in the future.

[Joshua Rogan]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought, comparable with later victims' in extent, and thus intention.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-old-wounds.html

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Leg positions;

Annie Chapman's legs; "The legs were drawn up, the feet resting on the ground, and the knees turned outwards."

Kate Eddowes' legs; "The left leg extended in a line with the body. The abdomen was exposed. Right leg bent at the thigh and knee.

[Fisherman]

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Arrow-shaped? Could you expand on this? I don´t understand what you are after.

[Sam Flynn]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought

Tom, as ever, raises some very good points.

[Elamarna]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought, comparable with later victims' in extent, and thus intention.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-old-wounds.html

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Hi Joshua,

Yes Tom does raise some interesting points, and that fits in with the work I started back in November I think, on Bucks Row.

While it is considered by the majority that there was one major wound and several minor ones to the abdomen, not all reports seems to agree, interestingly the reports from Llewellyn and Spratling are both open to interpretation.

In his work "by ear and eyes" Karyo Magellan produces a sketch which represents the traditional view of Nichol's wounds.

I shall below provide various quotes which back up this view and others which disagree with it, which view one accepts is down to the individual.
This by the way is an abstract from part of my research which is growing all the time.

Abdomen wounds

From inquest- Dr Llewellyn:

“There were no injuries about the body till just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. It was a very deep wound, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards. All these had been caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards. The wounds were from left to right, and might have been done by a left-handed person. All the injuries had been done by the same instrument. “

As it stands this is actually fairly uninformative,the wounds are not described well. However there are other sources we can use.

From Inspector Spratlings report 31/08/88

“the abdomen had been [cut] open from centre of bottom of ribs a[long] right side, under pelvis to left of the stomach, there the wound was jag[ged], the omentium [sic], or coating of the stomach, was also cut in several places, and tw[o] small stabs on private parts, apparently done with a strong bladed knife, supposed to have been done by some le[ft] handed person, death being almost instantaneous."



We know that Spratling was at the mortuary that morning, so this is probably either an eyewitness report or based on a report given to him by Lleweylln.

It is not easy to read, the grammar and punctuation are somewhat less than perfect, but it is certainly more detailed than the description given by Llewellyn at the inquest.

While most commentators have seen the report as describing a single major wound, others have interpreted it as meaning two.

We should therefore look to see if there is any any collaboration for this view.

Firstly there is the report you quoted which says more than a single major cut, then we have a report circulated by the Central News Agency and published in newspapers on the very day of the murder. (so it is syndicated).

“She was immediately conveyed to the Whitechapel mortuary, when it was found that besides the wound in the throat the lower part of the abdomen was completely ripped open, with the bowels protruding. The wound extends nearly to her breast, and must have been effected with a large knife.”

This is sounds similar to the wounds in the case of Chapman and Eddowes and mentions only one major wound.

The Star newspaper ran this press release, but also ran a completely separate story which differed in details about the victims age and so appears to be from another independent source, rather than Central News Agency.


“No murder was ever more ferociously and more brutally done. The knife, which must have been a large and sharp one, was jobbed into the deceased at the lower part of the abdomen, and then drawn upward, not once but twice. The first cut veered to the right, slitting up the groin, and passing over the left hip, but the second cut went straight upward, along the centre of the body, and, reaching to the breast-bone. “


So here we have a second report of more than a single major wound.

Lets compare this to the description by Spratling in his official report, which was in all probability the source for Swanson's later report.


The star reporter says there are two major wounds:

“was jobbed into the deceased at the lower part of the abdomen, and then drawn upward, not once but twice”

We then get the description of the wound/wounds

“The first cut veered to the right, slitting up the groin, and passing over the left hip, but the second cut went straight upward, along the centre of the body, and, reaching to the breast-bone”


This can be interpreted as sounding similar to what Spratling describes


Insp. Spratling: "The abdomen had been [cut] open from centre of bottom of ribs a[long] right side, under pelvis to left of the stomach, there the wound was jag[ged]."


Although this may suggest two major cuts to some, it is still unclear! Is there any other source which may help?

Well yes Llewellyn himself gave a frank statement which was published in the Pall Mall Gazette edition of 01/09/88:

“The abdominal wounds are extraordinary for their length and the severity with which they have been inflicted. One cut extends from the base of the abdomen to the breast bone. Deceased's clothes were loose, and the wounds could have been inflicted while she was dressed. “



When he talks of length and severity, he is clearly talking in the plural, that would seem to say more than one major cut along with the minor cuts.

We have another report first published in the East London Observer of Sept. 1st, 1888, it provides some further information.

"Contrary to anticipation, beyond the flannel petticoat, and with the exception of a few bloodstains on the cloak, the other clothing was scarcely marked. The petticoat, however, was completely saturated with blood, and altogether presented a sickening spectacle.
The lower portion of the body, however, presented the most sickening spectacle of all. Commencing from the lower portion of the abdomen, a terrible gash extended nearly as far as the diaphragm - a gash from which the bowels protruded. "

Here we are back to a single major cut being mentioned, which if not clearing up if one or two cuts, certainly when combined with all the above examples should dispel any notion that these wounds/wound were not an aborted attempt to open the abdomen.


Of course we end up with some reports saying one major cut, some two, Spratling's report where the lack of punctuation and grammar mean it can be read either way and Llewellyn himself who talks of plural major cuts in one report and singular at the inquest.

And of course that does not even start to look at what damage those wounds did internally, which is another bone of contention.




Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Arrow-shaped? Could you expand on this? I don´t understand what you are after.

Quite simply that Eddowes abdominal wounds are in the shape of a large arrow pointing down, ie a long cut from sternum to pubis, then one running up the crease of each thigh. Nothing to do with the supposed "arrows" on her cheeks, but a purely practical cutting pattern for anyone intent on rummaging about inside the abdomen. I suspect similar cuts formed the basis of the "flaps" removed from Kelly and Chapman.

[Elamarna]

Quite simply that Eddowes abdominal wounds are in the shape of a large arrow pointing down, ie a long cut from sternum to pubis, then one running up the crease of each thigh. Nothing to do with the supposed "arrows" on her cheeks, but a purely practical cutting pattern for anyone intent on rummaging about inside the abdomen. I suspect similar cuts formed the basis of the "flaps" removed from Kelly and Chapman.

Joshua,

the report you quoted certainly can be viewed as suggesting that, and it does make sense from a practical point of view, the report I posted seems to suggest something different.
It does however highlight the issue we have with no accurate reports surviving from which to draw conclusions.


Steve

[Robert St Devil]

Jack the Jagger

hello steve. your posting was threadworthy!
... i may be catching up a bit late but me thinks the london vernacular circa 1888 had interchangeable definitions for the words ripped and jagged. at times i see personnel refer to ,jagged cuts, as ripped.
....there were two cuts, and i think joshua may be on to something, but i can,t say for sure bc i haven,t read thru his entire posting yet. dr llewyln uses the words wounds in the plural. He talks about ,one cut, but never the other; only this time he,s reversed the direction - first he says ,downwards, but then he talks about ,base of abdomen to breastbone,.
...central news is an account, not a report. ELO is being macabre, employing terms like sickening spectacle. and the star told the correct number of cuts.
...in sum total it appears that the killer was preparing to chunk her abdomen. He,s cut this U shape into her abdomen with the sidebars being the jagged incisions on her left and right sides of the abdomen. the only cuts missing are: the cut that runs from the top of the left cut to the top of the right cut AND the cuts that portion up her abdomen for removal.
...between spratling and llewyln, this is how i see it happening, and i,ll also have to stand down on my belief that the cuts were haphazard. Jack is standing with Polly facing him. He,s reached up under her skirt with his knife in his (left or right) hand. He either commences his first incision under her right side of the ribcage OR her left side of the stomach. He pulls his blade back without withdrawing it, and incises her body again, running jagged from his first incision, and he repeats this action a few times. both llewyln and spratling are stating that the incisions to her left side ran deeper and pierced the stomach. The cut on her right side is shorter, but the one on her left side is longer because it extends down and across her ,private parts, to under the right side of her pubis.
...where am i at now? he cut her abdomen first; it,s what causes her ,,almost,, instantaneous death, it,s the sickening spectacle of her wounds that primarily bleeds out into her clothing. maybe he cuts her left side first and her struggles run his blade deeper, maybe he cuts down her right side first and makes the longer cut when she is lying on the ground, dunno. WAIT! someone,s coming. can,t finish his work, definitely can,t have this ,,almost dead,, women implicating him SO he cuts her throat, left with barely any blood to flow.
...FOR THE TIME BEING i could see how cross is ,likely suspect, in her murder based on paul,s assertion that she was barely alive when he found her. her unfinished murder could explain why he struck again, a little over a week later; but this time, under more preferable conditions ie. privacy and lighting.

[Elamarna]

hello steve. your posting was threadworthy!

Thank you very much Robert,
That is just a small part of what I have been doing. As you can see from that and the other thread I posted on Paul, I have lots of questions and few answers.
I have to say I am far from convinced that the abdomen cuts as described would cause instantaneous death. And the argument over neck or abdomen first is far from clear.
Others of course take a different view on one or both issues, it's unlikely we will reach a consensus on those items as a group with the evidence being as it is I fear.



Steve

[Robert St Devil]

i don,t see the arrow. i see something more like this: I_/

the left bar being the cut from ribs to lower abdomen on her right side. i think the doctor got this cut correct in the documentary, fisherman. the bottom bar runs across her genitalia from under her right pubis up to the left side of her stomach.
the reference to the cuts on her right side is considering each ,jag, as a separate cut in a series of cuts: VV , not in parallel: IIII

[Elamarna]

i don,t see the arrow. i see something more like this: I_/

the left bar being the cut from ribs to lower abdomen on her right side. i think the doctor got this cut correct in the documentary, fisherman. the bottom bar runs across her genitalia from under her right pubis up to the left side of her stomach.
the reference to the cuts on her right side is considering each ,jag, as a separate cut in a series of cuts: VV , not in parallel: IIII

Robert that is more the way I read it if there are two major cuts. That of course is the issue. Is it one badly described or two again poorly described.

Steve

[Robert St Devil]

overall the ,squareness, of ,,the design,, gives me the impression that he was after the same thing as in his murder of annie chapman, beginning to square out her abdomen to cut into chunks. it begged the question: did jack the ripper complete polly nicholl,s murder? i know from hindsight that his ambitions were much greater whenever he assaulted a woman, so the answer (i think) is NO. that would mean that he didn,t complete ,his business, so... he may have been interrupted or the conditions weren,t ideal or...