The Double Event

[Joshua Rogan]

Cheers for those Jon. Fanny's sighting did get a lot of press, so I was beginning to wonder if Leon's coming forward got any coverage at all. If the Lloyds mention is the only one, it's no wonder that black bag stuck in the public consciousness.

[Robert St Devil]

hello joshua rogan, the forum

i read the 3 reports that you cited [on casebook] - same newspaper [en], same day [oct1], different editions. i could come away with 3 women (possibly!). There are:

1. the woman from "3 doors down" (no, i wont sing you one of their songs!)
2. the woman from 2 doors down
3. the woman from 4 doors down

1. The report only says that the journalist found her there, not whether she lived there. She was the ,,artisan,s wife,, and i can,t determine whether she is fanny or not, not enough evidence. Only that she was found talking with a couple of neighbors, made me wonder WHO those neighbors might be. She doesn,t say how long she was at the door, but she apparently was there an adequate moment to assess the ongoings of berner street.

2. This woman heard the tramp of the constable, and claims to be at her door from around 12:46 to 12:56am.

3. The 3rd woman is Fanny Mortimer, claiming to have stood at her doorstep nearly the whole time from 12:30 to 1:00am.

So... we have the potential for 3 possible neighbours, standing outside their doorstep about the same hour, each going in at different intervals, each commenting how "unusual, quiet" was Berner street, none mentioning seeing the other woman (or women) for that matter. hmm...

[Joshua Rogan]

So... we have the potential for 3 possible neighbours, standing outside their doorstep about the same hour, each going in at different intervals, each commenting how "unusual, quiet" was Berner street, none mentioning seeing the other woman (or women) for that matter. hmm...

Hi Robert,
If they are all different women then their stories don't seem to contradict each other. The only contradiction was probably introduced by the journalist - number 36 wasn't 4 doors from the scene, but it was 2 doors from the club and 3 doors from the gateway. Coincidence or magic? Then again, perhaps Fanny and her neighbours were all hanging out together on one doorstep.
But my money's on them all being local prostitutes who murdered Liz for encroaching on their patch.

[Robert St Devil]

the woman who hears the constable and fanny mortimer appear as different women in this edition of the evening news because the journalist separates their encounters within the same article. the artisan,s wife, im guessing here, appeared in an earlier edition of that day,s evening news, and i can,t tell if she is either of the afore mentioned women.

reading into the fifth edition, there were two women, neighbours even, at their door. The contradiction, for me, comes when i try to read fanny mortimer and the woman who heard the constable AS the same woman.

[Joshua Rogan]

reading into the fifth edition, there were two women, neighbours even, at their door. The contradiction, for me, comes when i try to read fanny mortimer and the woman who heard the constable AS the same woman.

I think the woman this refers to was chatting with neighbours when she was interviewed, not (necessarily) at the time of the murder.

[MysterySinger]

I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.

you never know-he was carrying a shiny black bag! ; )

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, an unidentified man spotted at the scene of a murder injecting himself into the case by going to the police to "clear himself".... classic serial killer behaviour!

On a serious note.....any reason to think Leon was a bit dodgy, MS, or just a feeling?

[Michael W Richards]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

[Phil Carter]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

Hello Michael,

Hope you are well 😊

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil

[Robert St Devil]

But my money's on them all being local prostitutes who murdered Liz for encroaching on their patch.

an easier but effective method, to rid liz from berner street, would have been for the women to beat her up rather than hire a prostitute assassin.

hi jr

you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.

whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?

it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...

[Joshua Rogan]

you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.

The wording is specific in the articles;

"three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered" - the gateway was between no.40 and 42, so the three doors would be 40 (the club), 38 then 36 - Fanny's door.

"two doors from the club" - the club being no.40, two doors down would again be 36. *

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy" - this is the only one that specifically mentions Fanny's name and address, yet miscalculates the number of doors. Unless it includes the gates to the yard as the first door.

whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?

Difficult to say for sure. My feeling is they were all the same woman, interviewed by different reporters over several hours and, in each, focusing on different aspects of what she saw.

it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...

Hat trick? I'm pretty sure the ripper was responsible for a maximum of two, that night, not all three.


* of course, two doors the other way would be no.44 - Mrs Packer?

[Joshua Rogan]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious

Not suspicious at all really. Fanny's account was published on Monday, and only the Daily News and Evening News mentioned the man with the black bag. If he didn't read either of these then Tuesday seems a perfectly reasonable time for word of mouth to reach him and connect this report to himself.

but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50. So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

It was very dark in the passageway - if club members walking to the side door couldn't be sure there was nobody lying bleeding on the ground, then Leon walking past and glancing at the club probably wouldn't have seen anything either.
Fanny seemed confidant that she would have seen anyone enter or leave the gates while she was at the door. Which is why she speculated that the killer must have entered the yard (with Liz) in the 4 minutes between her going inside and Louis arriving on his cart. Which fits well with the interruption theory, and the killer hiding in the shadows then leaving the yard when Louis goes inside the club to find his wife and a candle.
However, in one of the sightings Fanny (or whoever) does say that Leon might have come from the club, but in the other says he walked past....

[Robert St Devil]

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock Mrs. Fanny Mortimer [apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan], living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time.

"I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

"I was just about going to bed, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway.

{or: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.}

I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear."

hi jr

good catch... with Mrs Packer.. but i think that we are correct in assuming the reported houses were in the direction of Commercial rather than Fairclough if that's the direction from where Diemschitz was arriving. Plus, it says "Mrs. Mortimer" was sleeping on the ground floor, front room... wouldn't Packer's storefront have been 'there'?

I 'frankensteined' the above story from the varying Evening News reports, Oct1. Other than the time discrepancy, the other contradictions, albeit minor, were their purpose for 'rushing' out the house, and when they learned about the murder. any thoughts?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Hope you are well ��

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil

Ive never believed this was a Double Event anyway Phil, so a killer trapped inside the club for a while doesn't bother me. I am well thanks, hope you are the same. I do not see anything similar with Polly, Annies and perhaps Kates killer, in the murder of Liz Stride. She got killed. Why? The million dollar question...but it sure wasn't for pm mutilating.