The Double Event

[DJA]

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner gave a different time to the other witnesses so in what sense are their statements"corroborated"?

Spooners saunter and loiter explanation for the time after they left the pub and ended up outside the Beehive is consistent with the other early times given.

He says "On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

The medical authority first onsite believed the cut was likely made between 12:46 and 12:56, the second one believed it to have been "within the hour". Its within that framework that a possible cut time around 12:45-46 exists. Which, if Diemshitz told the truth, means too much time alone for no signs of further actions. If he didn't, then its a matter of reconciling the accounts to see where some inconsistencies lie. 3 witnesses gave a discovery time around 12:45, 1 witness gave a victim struggle account for 12:45, and the steward says he was still 15 minutes away.

Didn't Fanny hear boots by her door around 1:50...when she came out to stand by the door for the last ten minutes of the hour? Isnt that statement by Fanny also a contradiction to the story that Louis gives about arriving at precisely 1am? Surely, had she actually been there...as her sighting of Goldstein suggests, she would have heard and seen the cart and driver approaching just before 1.

[Joshua Rogan]

Didn't Fanny hear boots by her door around 1:50...when she came out to stand by the door for the last ten minutes of the hour? Isnt that statement by Fanny also a contradiction to the story that Louis gives about arriving at precisely 1am? Surely, had she actually been there...as her sighting of Goldstein suggests, she would have heard and seen the cart and driver approaching just before 1.

The Evening News reports this, which corroborates Louis;
"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

[Joshua Rogan]

Here is an Evening News interview with Fanny - the previous woman, although unnamed, is almost certainly her too;

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

This evidence is consistent with Louis, Eagle, PC Lamb, Dr Blackwell and his assistant. Note she says she saw no-one enter or leave the gates before 1am.

[Joshua Rogan]

Spooners saunter and loiter explanation for the time after they left the pub and ended up outside the Beehive is consistent with the other early times given.

He says "On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Spooner's early arrival time estimate may be vaguely consistent with other early estimates, but his evidence isn't even consistent with itself. If he was standing outside the Beehive "between half past twelve and one o'clock", then he couldn't have been summoned to the yard by Louis at about 12:35 as he later said.

[Michael W Richards]

Here is an Evening News interview with Fanny - the previous woman, although unnamed, is almost certainly her too;

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

This evidence is consistent with Louis, Eagle, PC Lamb, Dr Blackwell and his assistant. Note she says she saw no-one enter or leave the gates before 1am.

The evidence does not support Louis, she never saw or heard him and she was at the door from 12:50 until 1am, it doesn't support Eagle because she said she was at her door off an on from 12:30 until 12:50 and never saw or heard him arrive... when she remained at the door until 1am, and she didn't see anyone but the young couple on the corner...which explains Browns statements. The time that Lamb arrived back on the scene isn't the critical point I'm addressing, nor is Blackwells timing, nor is the fact that Fanny goes to find out what happened just after 1am.

The issue is that based on contradictory statements about what time people were notified at the club about the body in the yard, and that Fanny never saw or heard Louis, he may have arrived at around 12:45 and between that time and the time he and Eagle....and Issac by himself, went out for help..they, or he, decided what to do and what to say. The problem is that he wasn't able to get to some witnesses before they were interviewed on their own, to let them know that they should say that the arrival time was 1am.

This, for me, is basic CYA 101... as the steward of the club, considering the climate of fear about the killer on the loose and the anti-Semitism in the East End.

I suggest Louis lied about what time he arrived and called for others in the club so he could decide how to go public with this news.

[John G]

Spooners saunter and loiter explanation for the time after they left the pub and ended up outside the Beehive is consistent with the other early times given.

He says "On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

The medical authority first onsite believed the cut was likely made between 12:46 and 12:56, the second one believed it to have been "within the hour". Its within that framework that a possible cut time around 12:45-46 exists. Which, if Diemshitz told the truth, means too much time alone for no signs of further actions. If he didn't, then its a matter of reconciling the accounts to see where some inconsistencies lie. 3 witnesses gave a discovery time around 12:45, 1 witness gave a victim struggle account for 12:45, and the steward says he was still 15 minutes away.

Didn't Fanny hear boots by her door around 1:50...when she came out to stand by the door for the last ten minutes of the hour? Isnt that statement by Fanny also a contradiction to the story that Louis gives about arriving at precisely 1am? Surely, had she actually been there...as her sighting of Goldstein suggests, she would have heard and seen the cart and driver approaching just before 1.

Edward Spooner's evidence is in no way consistent with the two witnesses who gave a discovery time of 12:45 (and there's absolutely no indication that either of those witnesses even had a watch.)

Thus, in the citation that you gave he gives a time of between half past twelve and one o'clock, which basically means he hadn't a clue.

As for Fanny Mortimer, her evidence actually supports Louis D: she stated that she saw a man, later identified as Leon Goldstein, pass by and about 4 minutes later she heard the pony and cart. And Goldstein passed by shortly before 1:00am.

I would also note that Mortimer wasn't at her door for the whole period 12:30 and 1:00am and she didn't, for instance, see Charles Letchford, Morris Eagle, PC Smith, or Joseph Lace, all of whom would have been in the area between those times.

[Robert St Devil]

hellolo joshua rogan, mwr

she,s contradicting herself within the same newspaper. it appears that she went from being at her door from 12:45ish to 12:55ish up to being at her door for the entire half hour. i think that your first example is more accurate, more telling. if she HEARD the tramp of the constable, that would place her INSIDE the house; or else, she would have stated, "i SAW the constable walk by..." if she had truly been at her doorstep. the second example really just generalizes her story from 12:30 to 1a, but picks up the detail regarding her account of what happened AFTER liz,s body was discovered.

MWR, i find it interesting that the doctor ended his times on the ,6,. he must have been looking at his watch on a ,6,... like 1:16a, and calculated that liz had been murdered (20 or 30) minutes ago.

[Michael W Richards]

Edward Spooner's evidence is in no way consistent with the two witnesses who gave a discovery time of 12:45 (and there's absolutely no indication that either of those witnesses even had a watch.)

Thus, in the citation that you gave he gives a time of between half past twelve and one o'clock, which basically means he hadn't a clue.

As for Fanny Mortimer, her evidence actually supports Louis D: she stated that she saw a man, later identified as Leon Goldstein, pass by and about 4 minutes later she heard the pony and cart. And Goldstein passed by shortly before 1:00am.

I would also note that Mortimer wasn't at her door for the whole period 12:30 and 1:00am and she didn't, for instance, see Charles Letchford, Morris Eagle, PC Smith, or Joseph Lace, all of whom would have been in the area between those times.

The above highlight is why I believe Fanny to be a very important witness here. Although she claimed to be at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, she stated she was at her door from 12:50 until 1. Fanny didn't see or hear a cart approaching during that time, but she did see Leon Goldstein, who on Tuesday night claimed to be the passing bag man. She would have HAD to have seen or heard that cart and horse if it arrived at 1am, as is claimed. Technically, Liz is not seen by anyone after PC Smith leaves at 12:35 until she is found. Israel Schwartzs story contrasts with Fanny recollections of what she saw and heard, and there was no 4 person party with screams and shouting anywhere in the street that night.

[Michael W Richards]

she,s contradicting herself within the same newspaper. it appears that she went from being at her door from 12:45ish to 12:55ish up to being at her door for the entire half hour. i think that your first example is more accurate, more telling. if she HEARD the tramp of the constable, that would place her INSIDE the house; or else, she would have stated, "i SAW the constable walk by..." if she had truly been at her doorstep. the second example really just generalizes her story from 12:30 to 1a, but picks up the detail regarding her account of what happened AFTER liz,s body was discovered.

MWR, i find it interesting that the doctor ended his times on the ,6,. he must have been looking at his watch on a ,6,... like 1:16a, and calculated that liz had been murdered (20 or 30) minutes ago.

Id agree with that, but I also bear in mind that the 2nd physician onsite thought it possible she had been cut within the past hour, and he arrived around 1:30. Everyone likes to make time allowances for the inconsistent data in this investigation, but when it comes to precise time of cut pronouncements I would allow some leeway. I think its possible Louis arrived as the murder was happening, or just after. 5 minute leeway makes that possible, his lack of corroborating data for his arrival time makes it shaky ground to base a story on.

Now, the time he actually went out for help and sent Issac alone, and Eagle, might be as he claims. That would fit with the police and medical timings. I just believe that there was a delay in acting. That the discovery, the gathering of club members outside, the discussions about what to do, took longer than allowed for using Diemshitzs times.

[Joshua Rogan]

she,s contradicting herself within the same newspaper. it appears that she went from being at her door from 12:45ish to 12:55ish up to being at her door for the entire half hour. i think that your first example is more accurate, more telling. if she HEARD the tramp of the constable, that would place her INSIDE the house; or else, she would have stated, "i SAW the constable walk by..." if she had truly been at her doorstep. the second example really just generalizes her story from 12:30 to 1a, but picks up the detail regarding her account of what happened AFTER liz,s body was discovered.

MWR, i find it interesting that the doctor ended his times on the ,6,. he must have been looking at his watch on a ,6,... like 1:16a, and calculated that liz had been murdered (20 or 30) minutes ago.

Hi Robert,
With respect to Dr Blackwell's time....yes, he specifically says he consulted his watch when he arrived. Diemschutz says he noticed the time from the clock at the corner as he turned into Berner St from Commercial Road. It should be noted that at least Eagle, PCs Lamb and Collins and the doctors would most likely have passed this clock (but give no indication that they noticed it).

I'm not sure Fanny contradicts herself necessarily, so much as emphasising different details. The article that names Fanny was carried by most papers on the 1st Oct, but only the Daily News and Evening News carry the other one, so it's not like she told the same reporter two different versions. Her words leave it open that, as Michael says, she was in and out of her door in that half an hour, and for ten minutes solid after the policeman passed. Or she might have just been exaggerating, like a fisherman's tale, the time growing with each telling. It's even possible that the two reports are of different women who happened to be doing the same thing at the same time - after all, Mr Letchford at no.30 said "my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by". But my money's on Fanny.
There's also a third article in the Evening News;

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.

"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.

"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."
That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?"

[Wickerman]

Goldstein's appearance would have been of greater value if a time had been provided in his press account.

[Joshua Rogan]

Goldstein's appearance would have been of greater value if a time had been provided in his press account.

Hi Jon. I don't suppose you could point me to any press accounts about him, could you?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon. I don't suppose you could point me to any press accounts about him, could you?

Hi Joshua.

Just a brief account in Lloyds.

"Reports have been circulated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag about the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner-street."
Lloyds Weekly News, 7 Oct. 1888.

[Wickerman]

Here is one of the reports that Lloyds is making reference to:

(Mrs Mortimer)
"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and went round the corner by the board school."
Pall Mall Gazette, 1 Oct. 1888.

As Mortimer mentions seeing this man "previously", it suggests to me she means before one o'clock, on her first vigil between 12:30 and 1:00.
This account was repeated nationwide on the same day so appears to be an agency source.