The Double Event

[Elamarna]

Quite simply that Eddowes abdominal wounds are in the shape of a large arrow pointing down, ie a long cut from sternum to pubis, then one running up the crease of each thigh. Nothing to do with the supposed "arrows" on her cheeks, but a purely practical cutting pattern for anyone intent on rummaging about inside the abdomen. I suspect similar cuts formed the basis of the "flaps" removed from Kelly and Chapman.

Joshua,

the report you quoted certainly can be viewed as suggesting that, and it does make sense from a practical point of view, the report I posted seems to suggest something different.
It does however highlight the issue we have with no accurate reports surviving from which to draw conclusions.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Arrow-shaped? Could you expand on this? I donīt understand what you are after.

Quite simply that Eddowes abdominal wounds are in the shape of a large arrow pointing down, ie a long cut from sternum to pubis, then one running up the crease of each thigh. Nothing to do with the supposed "arrows" on her cheeks, but a purely practical cutting pattern for anyone intent on rummaging about inside the abdomen. I suspect similar cuts formed the basis of the "flaps" removed from Kelly and Chapman.

[Elamarna]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought, comparable with later victims' in extent, and thus intention.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-old-wounds.html

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Hi Joshua,

Yes Tom does raise some interesting points, and that fits in with the work I started back in November I think, on Bucks Row.

While it is considered by the majority that there was one major wound and several minor ones to the abdomen, not all reports seems to agree, interestingly the reports from Llewellyn and Spratling are both open to interpretation.

In his work "by ear and eyes" Karyo Magellan produces a sketch which represents the traditional view of Nichol's wounds.

I shall below provide various quotes which back up this view and others which disagree with it, which view one accepts is down to the individual.
This by the way is an abstract from part of my research which is growing all the time.

Abdomen wounds

From inquest- Dr Llewellyn:

“There were no injuries about the body till just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. It was a very deep wound, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards. All these had been caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards. The wounds were from left to right, and might have been done by a left-handed person. All the injuries had been done by the same instrument. “

As it stands this is actually fairly uninformative,the wounds are not described well. However there are other sources we can use.

From Inspector Spratlings report 31/08/88

“the abdomen had been [cut] open from centre of bottom of ribs a[long] right side, under pelvis to left of the stomach, there the wound was jag[ged], the omentium [sic], or coating of the stomach, was also cut in several places, and tw[o] small stabs on private parts, apparently done with a strong bladed knife, supposed to have been done by some le[ft] handed person, death being almost instantaneous."



We know that Spratling was at the mortuary that morning, so this is probably either an eyewitness report or based on a report given to him by Lleweylln.

It is not easy to read, the grammar and punctuation are somewhat less than perfect, but it is certainly more detailed than the description given by Llewellyn at the inquest.

While most commentators have seen the report as describing a single major wound, others have interpreted it as meaning two.

We should therefore look to see if there is any any collaboration for this view.

Firstly there is the report you quoted which says more than a single major cut, then we have a report circulated by the Central News Agency and published in newspapers on the very day of the murder. (so it is syndicated).

“She was immediately conveyed to the Whitechapel mortuary, when it was found that besides the wound in the throat the lower part of the abdomen was completely ripped open, with the bowels protruding. The wound extends nearly to her breast, and must have been effected with a large knife.”

This is sounds similar to the wounds in the case of Chapman and Eddowes and mentions only one major wound.

The Star newspaper ran this press release, but also ran a completely separate story which differed in details about the victims age and so appears to be from another independent source, rather than Central News Agency.


“No murder was ever more ferociously and more brutally done. The knife, which must have been a large and sharp one, was jobbed into the deceased at the lower part of the abdomen, and then drawn upward, not once but twice. The first cut veered to the right, slitting up the groin, and passing over the left hip, but the second cut went straight upward, along the centre of the body, and, reaching to the breast-bone. “


So here we have a second report of more than a single major wound.

Lets compare this to the description by Spratling in his official report, which was in all probability the source for Swanson's later report.


The star reporter says there are two major wounds:

“was jobbed into the deceased at the lower part of the abdomen, and then drawn upward, not once but twice”

We then get the description of the wound/wounds

“The first cut veered to the right, slitting up the groin, and passing over the left hip, but the second cut went straight upward, along the centre of the body, and, reaching to the breast-bone”


This can be interpreted as sounding similar to what Spratling describes


Insp. Spratling: "The abdomen had been [cut] open from centre of bottom of ribs a[long] right side, under pelvis to left of the stomach, there the wound was jag[ged]."


Although this may suggest two major cuts to some, it is still unclear! Is there any other source which may help?

Well yes Llewellyn himself gave a frank statement which was published in the Pall Mall Gazette edition of 01/09/88:

“The abdominal wounds are extraordinary for their length and the severity with which they have been inflicted. One cut extends from the base of the abdomen to the breast bone. Deceased's clothes were loose, and the wounds could have been inflicted while she was dressed. “



When he talks of length and severity, he is clearly talking in the plural, that would seem to say more than one major cut along with the minor cuts.

We have another report first published in the East London Observer of Sept. 1st, 1888, it provides some further information.

"Contrary to anticipation, beyond the flannel petticoat, and with the exception of a few bloodstains on the cloak, the other clothing was scarcely marked. The petticoat, however, was completely saturated with blood, and altogether presented a sickening spectacle.
The lower portion of the body, however, presented the most sickening spectacle of all. Commencing from the lower portion of the abdomen, a terrible gash extended nearly as far as the diaphragm - a gash from which the bowels protruded. "

Here we are back to a single major cut being mentioned, which if not clearing up if one or two cuts, certainly when combined with all the above examples should dispel any notion that these wounds/wound were not an aborted attempt to open the abdomen.


Of course we end up with some reports saying one major cut, some two, Spratling's report where the lack of punctuation and grammar mean it can be read either way and Llewellyn himself who talks of plural major cuts in one report and singular at the inquest.

And of course that does not even start to look at what damage those wounds did internally, which is another bone of contention.




Steve

[Sam Flynn]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought

Tom, as ever, raises some very good points.

[Fisherman]

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Arrow-shaped? Could you expand on this? I donīt understand what you are after.

[Joshua Rogan]

Regarding Polly's injuries, Tom Wescott makes a good case for them having been far more severe than generally thought, comparable with later victims' in extent, and thus intention.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-old-wounds.html

Likewise, some press reports (such as the Illustrated Police News 8th Sept) describe them similarly;

"It was then discovered that in addition to the gash in her throat, which had nearly severed the head from the body, the lower part of the abdomen had been ripped up, and the bowels were protruding. The abdominal wall, the whole length of the body, had been cut open, and on either side were two incised wounds almost as severe as the centre one. This reached from the lower part of the abdomen to the breast-bone."

To me that sounds as if it could be describing the (horribly jagged) arrow-shaped cuts inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen shown in the mortuary sketch.

Leg positions;

Annie Chapman's legs; "The legs were drawn up, the feet resting on the ground, and the knees turned outwards."

Kate Eddowes' legs; "The left leg extended in a line with the body. The abdomen was exposed. Right leg bent at the thigh and knee.

[Robert St Devil]

hello sam. i don,t believe that we have ,spoken, before, so thank you for the response. Apologies in advance for the argument, but... well, it,s Casebook Forums afterall. still your view points are respected.

i,m going between the recent conversations re: The Ripper being the Torso Killer, and MWR,s comments that liz, murder does NOT resemble Jack,s work. To a point, i can concur, but i don,t see stride,s murder being isolated from all of the others in terms of resemblance.

i can buy into Chapman, Eddowes & Kelly being committed by the same murderer... with a high probability that criminal was the Torso Killer. The 3 women share the abdominal mutilations for the purpose of organ harvesting and other points.

However i,ve noticed before that liz and polly appeared more like pedestrian efforts on jack,s part comparitively speaking... and that may extend to Tabram, Mylett, McKenzie and Cole. Most of my assertion is based on scenes of the crimes and victim profile.

POLLY,S MUTILATIONS
Her abdomen was attacked, true; however, the cuts aren,t described in a manner that supports an attempt to harvest her organs. They resemble Frances, cuts; possiby sexual in nature but without any [intention, focus, purpose]. From the post mortem reports, the cuts seem haphazard.

YARDS & GUTTERS
My apologies. I wasn,t focusing on how the women,s head were near gates. More that the word YARD appears with his ,lesser, murders - George, Brown, Dutfield. And, a notice that the blood of these women tends to flow into gutters, Cole included.

BONNETS & BLOUSES
The idea is, the killer removed the bonnet of Nicholls and Stride (like Cole) and placed beside the body... unlike Chapman. And the blouse was loosened at the top. My assumption is, this action removed any obstacles while cutting her throat.

LEGS AKIMBO
I don,t have a clear idea of how Chapman,s legs were positioned, but Eddowes and Kelly,s legs were positioned in a diamond configuration... unlike Nicholls or Stride.

PROSTITUTION
Strong cases can be made that Tabram, Nicholls & Stride were performing a hooking style of prostitution on the nights that they were murdered. It,s typically CE&K that drives these forum on whether or not they were pros in the first place.

SCHOOLS (* a speculation)
I don,t know about George Yard; weren,t there schools located across from the Nicholls and Stride murder sites. Personally, i must confess that i have no suspect. Still,wouldn,t a school make for a good bolthole if you were someone like Montague Druitt (if he had access to the schools)? Again, my apologies for the speculation, but i got to wondering if his sexual misconduct was based on his use of prostitutes rather than homosexuality.

PRIVACY
It,s going to take me awhile to determine what i meant by CE&K,s murders being ,,private,,... for now, their locations seemed deliberately remote for obvious reasons. Jack knew how much time he would need on average to remove the organs. Nicholls and Stride,s murder sites were not entirely secluded, happening or practically happening on the street.

Again, thanks for the response, and i look forward to talking with you in the future.

[Sam Flynn]

i can see similarities between liz and polly, but they are peculiar points...

...both were found on the east side of the east end
...both were found at the gateways of yards

I don't think we can read much significance into the compass reading; the sites of all the murders were within a fairly short walk of one another... and we could waspishly suggest that Eddowes was found at the eastern boundary of the City of London.

Re gateways, Eddowes' head was only a few feet away from a gate/entrance behind which was a passage running parallel to a yard; Chapman's body was only inches away from a back door, parallel with and almost touching a wooden fence.

...both had their necks cut in the same direction but neither had any organs removed

Well, Polly's abdomen was severely slashed, which suggests strongly that there was an intention to eviscerate. We can't quite claim the same for Stride.

...both were murdered closer to the public where the mystery is how the crime went undetected. CE&K were killed in relatively more private locations.

Kelly certainly, but Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes were definitely killed in more public areas - albeit Mitre Square was rather quieter than the other open-air murder sites.

[Robert St Devil]

hello michael

i can see similarities between liz and polly, but they are peculiar points...

...both were found on the east side of the east end
...both were found at the gateways of yards
...both had their necks cut in the same direction but neither had any organs removed
...both were murdered closer to the public where the mystery is how the crime went undetected. CE&K were killed in relatively more private locations

the ,,i,m not sure,, points...
...both had bruising on their face
...both were found with their bonnets besides their body, possibly placed
...both were found with the top of their dresses undone
...noone attributed the detail of ornamentation to either woman as in the cases of chapman, eddowes and kelly. iow liz and polly,s murderer didn,t pocket-rifle thru their belongings, no taking of rings. liz, pocket is full of items even

fathoming two killers is tough for me at the present, but for the sake of entertainment - had their been a ,,from hell,, killer and a ,,dear boss,, killer - it would be something to know if the woman spoken of in the ,,dear boss,, letter was polly nicholls, and the reason metro only found a wineglass worth of blood was that her killer collected a quantity in a ginger beer bottle.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael

I agree entirely



Best wishes

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Hope you are well ��

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil

Ive never believed this was a Double Event anyway Phil, so a killer trapped inside the club for a while doesn't bother me. I am well thanks, hope you are the same. I do not see anything similar with Polly, Annies and perhaps Kates killer, in the murder of Liz Stride. She got killed. Why? The million dollar question...but it sure wasn't for pm mutilating.

[Robert St Devil]

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock Mrs. Fanny Mortimer [apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan], living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time.

"I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

"I was just about going to bed, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway.

{or: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.}

I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear."

hi jr

good catch... with Mrs Packer.. but i think that we are correct in assuming the reported houses were in the direction of Commercial rather than Fairclough if that's the direction from where Diemschitz was arriving. Plus, it says "Mrs. Mortimer" was sleeping on the ground floor, front room... wouldn't Packer's storefront have been 'there'?

I 'frankensteined' the above story from the varying Evening News reports, Oct1. Other than the time discrepancy, the other contradictions, albeit minor, were their purpose for 'rushing' out the house, and when they learned about the murder. any thoughts?

[Joshua Rogan]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious

Not suspicious at all really. Fanny's account was published on Monday, and only the Daily News and Evening News mentioned the man with the black bag. If he didn't read either of these then Tuesday seems a perfectly reasonable time for word of mouth to reach him and connect this report to himself.

but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50. So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

It was very dark in the passageway - if club members walking to the side door couldn't be sure there was nobody lying bleeding on the ground, then Leon walking past and glancing at the club probably wouldn't have seen anything either.
Fanny seemed confidant that she would have seen anyone enter or leave the gates while she was at the door. Which is why she speculated that the killer must have entered the yard (with Liz) in the 4 minutes between her going inside and Louis arriving on his cart. Which fits well with the interruption theory, and the killer hiding in the shadows then leaving the yard when Louis goes inside the club to find his wife and a candle.
However, in one of the sightings Fanny (or whoever) does say that Leon might have come from the club, but in the other says he walked past....

[Joshua Rogan]

you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.

The wording is specific in the articles;

"three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered" - the gateway was between no.40 and 42, so the three doors would be 40 (the club), 38 then 36 - Fanny's door.

"two doors from the club" - the club being no.40, two doors down would again be 36. *

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy" - this is the only one that specifically mentions Fanny's name and address, yet miscalculates the number of doors. Unless it includes the gates to the yard as the first door.

whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?

Difficult to say for sure. My feeling is they were all the same woman, interviewed by different reporters over several hours and, in each, focusing on different aspects of what she saw.

it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...

Hat trick? I'm pretty sure the ripper was responsible for a maximum of two, that night, not all three.


* of course, two doors the other way would be no.44 - Mrs Packer?

[Robert St Devil]

But my money's on them all being local prostitutes who murdered Liz for encroaching on their patch.

an easier but effective method, to rid liz from berner street, would have been for the women to beat her up rather than hire a prostitute assassin.

hi jr

you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.

whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?

it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...