Time Of Death

[Sam Flynn]

And if odds are an issue, what are the odds that on both sides of Cadosches yard and fences that activity was happening around 5am.

Good point. And don't forget that it's not just the yards either side that we need to consider, but Cadoche's own back yard as well - so that's three yards with simultaneous activity going on. Even given that it was around getting-up time and people would be using the outside privies before heading off to work, that's still a bit of a stretch.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree Michael but the problem is that Fishy believes the Knight story which says that Annie was killed elsewhere and that two men carrying a mutilated corpse unseen from an unseen coach and horses and dumped her in the yard.

Then the spray evidence on the fence, indicating an arterial breach, is what...she was cut there and gutted there. Why re-invent a perfectly reasonable wheel. And if odds are an issue, what are the odds that on both sides of Cadosches yard and fences that activity was happening around 5am.

[FISHY1118]

At 5.20am? In a backyard? With no one else having reason to be there? 40 minutes before a body was found? It’s not impossible that it was someone else of course but the odds are against it.

I was thinking more along the lines of something rather than someone , possible ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would say any number of things could have been responsible for the thud in that hour .its a LONG time where thats concerned.

At 5.20am? In a backyard? With no one else having reason to be there? 40 minutes before a body was found? It’s not impossible that it was someone else of course but the odds are against it.

[FISHY1118]

I would say any number of things could have been responsible for the thud in that hour .its a LONG time where thats concerned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No here is the simple truth , codosch only heard a voice which i he stated he couldn't cant be sure which yard it came from , and the thud against the fence is not conclusive it was made by someone that was in the yard at that time .

So herlock if you want to discard one other theory fine go ahead but there could be any number of other scenarios or possibility as to how and when chapman was murdered . you just cant see them.

Again Fishy, I’ve never said that Cadosch was categorically correct. What we know is that he heard a voice but couldn’t be certain where it came from. He was more confident though that the noise of something falling against the fence came from number 29.

And so of course you are free to dismiss this but isn’t it at least suggestive (or even massively coincidental) that someone heard something falling against a fence in a yard where a body was discovered less than an hour later? Do you think that the police today would simply dismiss this?

[FISHY1118]

No here is the simple truth , codosch only heard a voice which i he stated he couldn't be sure which yard it came from , and the thud against the fence is not conclusive it was made by someone that was in the yard at that time .

So herlock if you want to discard one other theory fine go ahead but there could be any number of other scenarios or possibility as to how and when chapman was murdered . you just cant see them.


again according to what codosch said and dont change a single thing about his statement [ but you will] its its not a 100 fact that the killer was in the yard between 5.15 and 5.30

[Herlock Sholmes]

One simple truth about Annies TOD, again....the cry and thud that were heard by Cadosche around 5:20 prove conclusively that there was no dead woman there at the time. The cry was heard from that same yard. So...no matter how desperately people claim that she was killed much earlier, that simple truth is enough to defeat those arguments.

I agree Michael but the problem is that Fishy believes the Knight story which says that Annie was killed elsewhere and that two men carrying a mutilated corpse unseen from an unseen coach and horses and dumped her in the yard.

[Michael W Richards]

One simple truth about Annies TOD, again....the cry and thud that were heard by Cadosche around 5:20 prove conclusively that there was no dead woman there at the time. The cry was heard from that same yard. So...no matter how desperately people claim that she was killed much earlier, that simple truth is enough to defeat those arguments.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If they were anything like modern GPs, he wouldn't know his ass from his elbow.

You’ve actually managed to get to see a GP Harry? Living where I do it’s a pain. Indiana Jones faced fewer obstacles when trying to locate the Lost Ark.

[Harry D]

It seems, Herlock, that some people believe that forensic science was far more advanced in 1888 than today! Not that Dr Phillips was a forensic expert anyway; he was a general practitioner.

If they were anything like modern GPs, he wouldn't know his ass from his elbow.

[John G]

Good point John. Have I read this somewhere but isn’t it also the case that the manner of death can have a serious impact too? Something that Phillips would have been unaware of?

Thanks Herlock. And you're absolutely correct about the impact of manner of death: "cut throat" can accelerate the onset of rigor:

Condition of body:

"Rigor mortis sets in quickly in thin built emaciated subjects and its duration is shorter in such cases. The more muscular and healthier the subject, rigor mortis will be more late to set in and long to continue."

Cause of death:

" Rigor will be eatlier to set in but shorter in durarion in cases of death due to tetanus, strychnine poison, in death preceded by violent spasms and convulsions as in status epilepticus, electrocution, lightning, or in case of death of soldiers after many hours of violent exertion in the battle fields, and in cut throat and firearm injuries." (The emphasis is mine.)

Source: Shivpoojan K. Time since Death from Rigor Mortis: Forensic Prospective. J Forensic Sci a Criminal Inves 2018; 9 (5): 555771

[DJA]

Wild guess ...... did the 41kg woman die of a heart condition?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Christer,

I'm not sure why you suggest that the average period of time for the onset of rigor in Annie's case should be around 4 hours. As I keep noting, there are many variables. For instance, Annie was undernourished, perhaps severely so. This is another factor that, potentially, can have a dramatic effect on the onset of rigor. For instance, Mesri et al. 2017, describe a case of a 41kg woman, admitted to hospital, where rigor mortis and whole body spasms had started whilst the patient was still alive!

Good point John. Have I read this somewhere but isn’t it also the case that the manner of death can have a serious impact too? Something that Phillips would have been unaware of?

[John G]

If it had been "worthless", it would not have been employed legally, John. And it is. This passage is what you rely on now: "The time of onset is variable but it is usually considered to appear between 1 and 6 hours (average 2–-4 hours) after death."

The average is therefore 2-4 hours. And in cool conditions the time is extended. So when we ask for Chapman to have been killed LESS than an hour (as per Long) before Phillips saw her, we are effectively asking for a medical miracle.

In very warm conditions, rigor MAY set in after an hour, but there were no such warm conditions in Hanbury Street. Nor were there lukewarm conditions. There were cold conditions! And that means that the expected average in Chapmans case should be pushed closer to four than two hours.

If we were to name the knowledge about these things worthless, we would put ourselves at the mercy of people who think John Richardson was a stellar witness, non-faltering and truthful in all he said.

The problem with that take is that he said various things, and that he produced a story that was as dull as the knife he claimed to have used to cut leather with - until it was revealed he never did.

Hi Christer,

I'm not sure why you suggest that the average period of time for the onset of rigor in Annie's case should be around 4 hours. As I keep noting, there are many variables. For instance, Annie was undernourished, perhaps severely so. This is another factor that, potentially, can have a dramatic effect on the onset of rigor. For instance, Mesri et al. 2017, describe a case of a 41kg woman, admitted to hospital, where rigor mortis and whole body spasms had started whilst the patient was still alive!