How about this quick theory!

[Malcolm X]

just for fun really

Broadshoulders was not intending to mutilate Stride in Dutfields yard, maybe he was trying to get Stride to walk away with him, maybe the intended murder site was down the road and around the corner...an unlit street!

He tried to pull her out of the yard, but they struggled and she fell over, he got a bit bad tempered when he saw the other guy and shouted JEW/LIPSKI, Schwartz walked off, followed by the other taller witness with a pipe, this lot is a bit of a mess, so my guess is Broadshoulders chased them both off, Pipeman was not following Schwartz, but leaving hastily in his direction too..simply behind him that's all.

E.Stride was waiting for somebody inside the club and refused to go with JTR, so he finally walked off too, in a bad temper, he then returned 5 minutes later and cut her throat in anger and spite.....he then went looking for another victim !

it doesn't make sense at all, that Jack was ever intending to kill in Dutfields, the place is simply way too risky and JTR would have known this too, i think he was trying to lead Stride to a quieter location, like he did with Eddowes, but Stride refused to go with him.

there is a time gap between Eddowes and Stride, this is ok, but JTR might have been looking for a piece of Chalk first, he was still upset about Stride and having his evening ruined, so he wrote the Graffito.

he shouted ``Jew``, but he never shouted at other eye witnesses did he, and it's interesting that he didn't really care if he was seen either, no instead, he was upset that Stride wouldn't walk off somewhere quieter, he saw Schwartz and was thinking, ``you can clear off Jew and you too, go on get lost the both of you``.

he then realised that he had made a fool of himself, he walked off for 5 minutes to let everything calm down and then returned to kill that ``annoying woman``, to me Broadshoulders could be a match for the Eddowes suspect, with a quick change of clothing and a 50% margin for error, JTR doesn't have to change much, just look a bit more like a sailor.... maybe

it's food for thought only !

[Phil H]

I agree with you to the extent that "it doesn't make sense at all, that Jack was ever intending to kill in Dutfields, the place is simply way too risky and JTR would have known this too".

That is one reason why I tend towards Stride being the victim of her ex-lover Kidney. It was a "crime of passion" as the french might say.

I also think it makes more sense to see Eddowes separately, without "Jack" having to run about and then strike lucky. I don't think that is how our killer worked at all.

And wasn't the call "Lipski" not "Jew"?

And in any case, if Schwartz heard "Lipski", might the cry not have been "Lizzie"? As a non-English speaker Schwartz might not have known what he heard and have assumed things.

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Aside from the fact that Kidney didn't kill Stride, and the yard was a far more safer spot than Bucks Row and 29 Hanbury Street, you might have a point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil H]

I wouldn't agree that Dutfield's Yard was safer than either Buck's Row or the 29 Hanbury St yard.

Also there is a strong possibility (IMHO) that the victims led their killer to Buck's Row or through 29 Hanbury St. I am certain that Liz did not lead her killer into Dutfield's Yard.

Phil

[Malcolm X]

Lipski is an insult, a bit like ``clear off PADDY`` ( you irish bastard), no i think this outburst was aimed at Schwartz because BS suddenly noticed him.

i think it's a bit too much of a coincidence that we have 2 murders on the same night and so close together in time, my guess is that he lost his temper with Stride and just killed her out of revenge and then went looking for Eddowes.

you can bet that when Stride fell over etc, that she swore at him, or maybe even insulted him, none of this is mentioned, but it's fairly obvious that she said something nasty to him..... because to insult his ego it might only need be, ``clear off mister, you aint my type``

whatever the case, Broadshoulders definitely seems angry.

the Stride murder is a complicated mess the more you look at it, but to me it seems like BS lost his cool after trying to get Stride to walk off somewhere quieter, he then snatched at her, she fell over and suddenly he saw Schwartz/Pipeman.

all the other victims were interested in him and walked with him, Stride was not, she was waiting for someone inside, this woman was not interested and this pissed him off.

the night of this double murder annoyed him and he was also disturbed once too often, so he took a break and waited for the police street presence to die down, he was now searching for somebody special, i dont think he was looking to kill indoors, he just got lucky.

MJK just made a fatal mistake that night, and it cost her her like, JTR simply heard the poor girl singing; nothing more, whilst strolling down Dorset St.

JTR saw Liz Stride whilst strolling past Dutfields, same with Eddowes etc, it's all variations on the same theme, he's an anti-semetic opportunist, he's looking for women standing on their own in quiet locations, if not quiet, he'll chat them up and lead them somewhere quiet.

food for thought only !

[Phil H]

You should write fiction, Malcom!

[Malcolm X]

I wouldn't agree that Dutfield's Yard was safer than either Buck's Row or the 29 Hanbury St yard.

Also there is a strong possibility (IMHO) that the victims led their killer to Buck's Row or through 29 Hanbury St. I am certain that Liz did not lead her killer into Dutfield's Yard.

Phil

i never said Dutfields was safer, but this location is extremely dangerous because any semi-drunk reveller could suddenly shoot out into Dutfields from inside, for a quick Jimmy Riddle up against the wall; or even to throw up due to too much booze, let alone somebody walking past outside. !!!!

the other murder locations are much quieter, but also highly risky too, but we're not discussing this are we, i'm trying to figure out if BS is JTR

yes JTR attacked LIZ later on whilst she was still waiting in Dutfields yard, he came back for a 2nd time; maybe 5 mins later.

[Malcolm X]

You should write fiction, Malcom!

It's no more fictional than anything else here and that is a fact

[Tom_Wescott]

Also there is a strong possibility (IMHO) that the victims led their killer to Buck's Row or through 29 Hanbury St. I am certain that Liz did not lead her killer into Dutfield's Yard.

Phil

If you're certain, then it would seem nothing could sway you, so I suppose a debate would be impossible. I'm not certain Liz lured her killer to the yard, but if Schwartz is to be believed, Stride was in fact standing in the gateway and speaking to men as they passed by, for whatever that's worth. If someone were to suggest that she was soliciting clients into the yard, they could hardly be accused of inventing a fantasy.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil H]

I never said Dutfields was safer,

I was responding to Tom Westcott on that point, Malcolm.

My fiction quip reflected the fact that your interpretation of events made genuinely good reading -though I don't personally believe it.

Phil

[Abby Normal]

just for fun really

Broadshoulders was not intending to mutilate Stride in Dutfields yard, maybe he was trying to get Stride to walk away with him, maybe the intended murder site was down the road and around the corner...an unlit street!

He tried to pull her out of the yard, but they struggled and she fell over, he got a bit bad tempered when he saw the other guy and shouted JEW/LIPSKI, Schwartz walked off, followed by the other taller witness with a pipe, this lot is a bit of a mess, so my guess is Broadshoulders chased them both off, Pipeman was not following Schwartz, but leaving hastily in his direction too..simply behind him that's all.

E.Stride was waiting for somebody inside the club and refused to go with JTR, so he finally walked off too, in a bad temper, he then returned 5 minutes later and cut her throat in anger and spite.....he then went looking for another victim !

it doesn't make sense at all, that Jack was ever intending to kill in Dutfields, the place is simply way too risky and JTR would have known this too, i think he was trying to lead Stride to a quieter location, like he did with Eddowes, but Stride refused to go with him.

there is a time gap between Eddowes and Stride, this is ok, but JTR might have been looking for a piece of Chalk first, he was still upset about Stride and having his evening ruined, so he wrote the Graffito.

he shouted ``Jew``, but he never shouted at other eye witnesses did he, and it's interesting that he didn't really care if he was seen either, no instead, he was upset that Stride wouldn't walk off somewhere quieter, he saw Schwartz and was thinking, ``you can clear off Jew and you too, go on get lost the both of you``.

he then realised that he had made a fool of himself, he walked off for 5 minutes to let everything calm down and then returned to kill that ``annoying woman``, to me Broadshoulders could be a match for the Eddowes suspect, with a quick change of clothing and a 50% margin for error, JTR doesn't have to change much, just look a bit more like a sailor.... maybe

it's food for thought only !

Hi Malcome
Interesting ideas.
I have always been inclined that BS man was JtR. and that Schwartz happened upon him as BS man was returning to Liz in anger after spending a relatively long time (indicated by the large amount of witnesses)trying to unsuccessfully finagle her into a dark alley. So basically I also think IS witnessed a JtR attack.

Having been interupted/seen by IS and then possibly disturbed again in Dutfield yard by LD before he could finish his mutilations, Jack set off in frustration to find another victim Eddowes who he was able to "finish" with. But again, not before being seen (Bothered) by Lawende and company. All these witnesses were Jewish and at least one, Israel Scwartz, Jack knew was Jewish as indicated of the shouting of "Lipski".

Having been pestered by Jews all night long while trying to do his thing and knowing he had probably been seen well by witnesses for the first time was what i think may have prompted jack to do the apron/GSG.

Of course since having a reluctant victim (Stride) and a bunch of Jews get in his way is something he could not forseen before he set out that night, he did not have a peice of chalk on him. So after Eddowes, he took the apron with him to prove the message he was about to write but not having chalk he had to find some (probably also to drop off the kidney and knife at his place). This would explain the relatively long time interval between the murder of Eddowes and the discovery of the apron/GSG when the two sites were actually only a short walking distance apart.

[Rubyretro]

My immediate thoughts :

maybe the intended murder site was down the road and around the corner...an unlit street!

If BS Man was 'Jack' , then that would be an enormous departure from his
other murders...normally he was very discreet and got his victim to the murder spot in the minimum time, with the minimum fuss.

He tried to pull her out of the yard, but they struggled and she fell over, he got a bit bad tempered when he saw the other guy and shouted JEW/LIPSKI

,

Why would he want to draw such attention to himself and his 'intended victim' ?

Schwartz walked off, followed by the other taller witness with a pipe, this lot is a bit of a mess, so my guess is Broadshoulders chased them both off, Pipeman was not following Schwartz, but leaving hastily in his direction too..simply behind him that's all.

Very possibly.

E.Stride was waiting for somebody inside the club and refused to go with JTR, so he finally walked off too, in a bad temper, he then returned 5 minutes later and cut her throat in anger and spite.....he then went looking for another victim !

That's nearly impossible....everything indicates that Stride went willingly behind the gates with her killer.

it doesn't make sense at all, that Jack was ever intending to kill in Dutfields, the place is simply way too risky and JTR would have known this too, i think he was trying to lead Stride to a quieter location, like he did with Eddowes, but Stride refused to go with him.

The location could be the reason that Jack chose Dutfields Yard.
The place would have been much quieter if BS Man & Pipemen had kept themselves to themselves.

there is a time gap between Eddowes and Stride, this is ok, but JTR might have been looking for a piece of Chalk first, he was still upset about Stride and having his evening ruined, so he wrote the Graffito.

Well, I hope that he had a light (to write by, but also to illuminate the doorway). I'm glad to know that it was possible to find handy pieces of chalk, in the dark, at such an hour, when you needed them. And that he could write so quickly, so neatly, so smally, and so complicatedly.

he shouted ``Jew``, but he never shouted at other eye witnesses did he, and it's interesting that he didn't really care if he was seen either, no instead, he was upset that Stride wouldn't walk off somewhere quieter, he saw Schwartz and was thinking, ``you can clear off Jew and you too, go on get lost the both of you``.

We don't really know if any of the 'witnesses' actually saw him.

[GregBaron]

Different Personality?

That’s a nice narrative Abnormal One as is yours Malcolm. Of course its speculation and conjecture but what else do we have? I get very tired of the posters who scream ‘conjecture’, ‘speculation’, ‘fiction’ every time someone tries to construct a story around the very few available facts. Rest assured if this case is ever solved it will be due to the pursuit of a path opened up by a ‘speculator’ which then leads to a fact/evidence. Most human leaps start with the imagination, see Einstein for example. So don’t be discouraged by the boring left brainers who exist only to cry foul when someone misrepresents a fact.

Now back on point. The only problem I have with all this is that BS man seems so un-Jack like. He’s basically a loud, obnoxious, indiscreet drunkard whereas in the other cases Jack is a phantom. Maybe he became that way in Dutfield’s yard because things weren’t going his way but that appears a bit of a stretch. It doesn’t seem like the same guy who was up for a quiet, patient chat at the entrance to Church passage. Anyway, just something that occurred to me.

The chalk-apron hypothesis is an interesting one and delves further into the potential personality of Jack…


Greg

[Abby Normal]

That’s a nice narrative Abnormal One as is yours Malcolm. Of course its speculation and conjecture but what else do we have? I get very tired of the posters who scream ‘conjecture’, ‘speculation’, ‘fiction’ every time someone tries to construct a story around the very few available facts. Rest assured if this case is ever solved it will be due to the pursuit of a path opened up by a ‘speculator’ which then leads to a fact/evidence. Most human leaps start with the imagination, see Einstein for example. So don’t be discouraged by the boring left brainers who exist only to cry foul when someone misrepresents a fact.

Now back on point. The only problem I have with all this is that BS man seems so un-Jack like. He’s basically a loud, obnoxious, indiscreet drunkard whereas in the other cases Jack is a phantom. Maybe he became that way in Dutfield’s yard because things weren’t going his way but that appears a bit of a stretch. It doesn’t seem like the same guy who was up for a quiet, patient chat at the entrance to Church passage. Anyway, just something that occurred to me.

The chalk-apron hypothesis is an interesting one and delves further into the potential personality of Jack…


Greg

Hi Greg

Now back on point. The only problem I have with all this is that BS man seems so un-Jack like. He’s basically a loud, obnoxious, indiscreet drunkard whereas in the other cases Jack is a phantom. Maybe he became that way in Dutfield’s yard because things weren’t going his way but that appears a bit of a stretch. It doesn’t seem like the same guy who was up for a quiet, patient chat at the entrance to Church passage. Anyway, just something that occurred to me.

Hi Greg
Astute observation and i basically agree with you. It doesn't SEEM like Jack in the Stride case. But he simply got frustrated and lost his temper and thus his control. With Eddowes he regained it. And with the Apron/GSG he reinforced it.

[curious]

So after Eddowes, he took the apron with him to prove the message he was about to write but not having chalk he had to find some (probably also to drop off the kidney and knife at his place). This would explain the relatively long time interval between the murder of Eddowes and the discovery of the apron/GSG when the two sites were actually only a short walking distance apart.

I've always suspected he got the chalk from Eddowes, who seemed to carry a bit of everything around with her.

curious