Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by cobalt 11 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: A theory about some injuries! - by Fisherman 12 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 12 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by cobalt 12 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by cobalt 12 hours ago.
Conferences and Meetings: American Jack the Ripper - True Crime Conference, Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018 - by ChrisGeorge 15 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Mary Jane Kelly: A theory about some injuries! - (10 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (8 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (7 posts)
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (6 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: Centenaries - whole and half - (2 posts)
Audio -- Visual: Mention of JtR in recent episode of "The Flash" - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #481  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:16 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,010
Default

With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #482  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:35 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?
Hi Harry
After some thought I have to agree with this. While possible I guess. it seems to me most likely scenario, if two knives were actually used, is that the killer had two knives with him and the smaller knife was used first with larger one used last to finish her off.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #483  
Old 10-18-2017, 09:50 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?
Being contrary as a lifestyle choice gives you that position by default. The fact is that soldiers carried the larger weapons that are indicated here due to the Bank Holiday, that soldiers were seen and heard of travelling in pairs that night, and had the large weapon not have been used, Martha could have survived that attack...only to finger her assailant later when recovered.

Soldiers have bonds that the rest of us cannot comprehend, mostly because as civilians we are not protecting each other all day long, and the scenario where a second soldier comes looking for his mate off with a street whore and finds him over a barely breathing woman and in an agitated maybe frightened state over what he has done could easily be moved to finish the job as a mercy kill and protect his friend in the same stroke. I'm not saying that's what Jon intends to put forward, just that the suggestion is very viable when you consider the bonds and the situation.

Whether it personally rings true to you is a matter for you to resolve, not Jon.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #484  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:31 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I think Jon that the dagger was either used first, or last, I don't see the that frenzy halting to change to another weapon for a single stab, or back to the pen knife. From my perspective when you have stabbing wounds that indicate rage, the only thing that would stop him from using that same knife is some damage to it. Then he has to have a second, smaller or larger, weapon on him. I think it starts with the large blade or ends with it. And I believe had a knife become damaged, it would have been discarded there.
Yes Michael.
A single assailant switching from one weapon to another would suggest the first weapon became damaged, like a blade snapping off. I feel sure both Killeene & the press would have made sure this piece of broken blade was mentioned if it was found in the wound.

Quote:
Which is why I favor the scenario where a final sure lethal blow is delivered to ensure the woman is finally dead, or soon will be. Martha was still bleeding when many of those blows were delivered, I assume the heart beating ended when the large blade was used.
And, this suggests to me a second participant.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #485  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:34 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
That was The Star, Jon.
Thankyou again, Christer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
"There are about eight on the chest, inflicted in almost circular form, while the probably fatal one - certainly much the largest and deepest of any - is under the heart" (Star, 8th August 1888)

It doesn't quite say that the (almost) circle was centred on the heart.
Thanks Gareth, evidently I miss-remembered that detail.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #486  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:56 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?
It suggests to me Harry, that Tabram was still alive, the potential for her to identify his buddy, or tell someone who attacked her needs to be dealt with, and quick. She could have hung on to life for long enough to raise the alarm if someone else came by.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Harry
After some thought I have to agree with this. While possible I guess. it seems to me most likely scenario, if two knives were actually used, is that the killer had two knives with him and the smaller knife was used first with larger one used last to finish her off.
Hi Abby.

If that were so, I wonder why a soldier, who presumably knows what it takes to kill someone, would use a penknife in the first place, if he had the more suitable weapon with him?

It only makes sense to me if the soldier used the penknife because it was all he had. And, soldiers do even today, go out on the town in pairs or groups.
They know they are sitting targets for the occasional drunk who thinks he can tussle with a soldier, so they go around together for their own protection as much as comradeship.

Killeene did say the wounds were committed while the victim was alive, so if the soldier had just run off after the multiple stabbings then she may have been found by someone who she could describe her attacker to.
Soldiers tend to think of self preservation when it comes to them against the public. So I see the scenario much like Michael suggested, the soldier's buddy came to his rescue, to finish off this worthless trollop, who if she lived could cause a lot of problems for them.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #487  
Old 10-18-2017, 01:28 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
It suggests to me Harry, that Tabram was still alive, the potential for her to identify his buddy, or tell someone who attacked her needs to be dealt with, and quick. She could have hung on to life for long enough to raise the alarm if someone else came by.




Hi Abby.

If that were so, I wonder why a soldier, who presumably knows what it takes to kill someone, would use a penknife in the first place, if he had the more suitable weapon with him?

It only makes sense to me if the soldier used the penknife because it was all he had. And, soldiers do even today, go out on the town in pairs or groups.
They know they are sitting targets for the occasional drunk who thinks he can tussle with a soldier, so they go around together for their own protection as much as comradeship.

Killeene did say the wounds were committed while the victim was alive, so if the soldier had just run off after the multiple stabbings then she may have been found by someone who she could describe her attacker to.
Soldiers tend to think of self preservation when it comes to them against the public. So I see the scenario much like Michael suggested, the soldier's buddy came to his rescue, to finish off this worthless trollop, who if she lived could cause a lot of problems for them.
inexperienced ripper who was accustomed to carrying a smaller pen knife who had used the smaller pen knife on Millwood, realized he needed something bigger. started carrying around both and in the heat of the moment with Tabram started off with the pen knife and finished with big knife.

although your scenario is possible.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #488  
Old 10-18-2017, 04:14 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
inexperienced ripper who was accustomed to carrying a smaller pen knife who had used the smaller pen knife on Millwood, realized he needed something bigger. started carrying around both and in the heat of the moment with Tabram started off with the pen knife and finished with big knife.
Yes, I see the connection, the clasp-knife, but I still fail to see why he would carry both weapons?
What could the penknife/clasp-knife do that a dagger couldn't?

I'm more inclined towards the attack on Ada Wilson as the novice Ripper, as the description of the man isn't too far removed from what the later victims describe.
There are some conflicting reports about how her attacker gained entry. Wilson may not have been straight when giving her side of the story.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #489  
Old 10-18-2017, 04:56 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Yes, I see the connection, the clasp-knife, but I still fail to see why he would carry both weapons?
What could the penknife/clasp-knife do that a dagger couldn't?

I'm more inclined towards the attack on Ada Wilson as the novice Ripper, as the description of the man isn't too far removed from what the later victims describe.
There are some conflicting reports about how her attacker gained entry. Wilson may not have been straight when giving her side of the story.
Yes Iíve got Wilson in the wheelhouse too. Especially since her attacker looks like blotchy!

The pen knife was what he was used to. Maybe he was a little unsure about the big knife because it was new to him? I donít know. Just thinker out loud.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #490  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:20 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Yes Iíve got Wilson in the wheelhouse too. Especially since her attacker looks like blotchy!
Ah yes, but he hadn't graduated to the peaked cap yet then?

Quote:
The pen knife was what he was used to. Maybe he was a little unsure about the big knife because it was new to him? I donít know. Just thinker out loud.
I wonder what he used his penknife for?
Maybe he was know as Jack the Whittler in those days?
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.