The Cachous

[John G]

I do agree that the Marshall suspect resembles BS-man, superficially at least, but the woman seen by Marshall at 11:45 pm may not have been Stride. Marshall doesn't say that he didn't see a flower, he says, "she did not have a flower on her breast".

Stride was already wearing the flower, a dahlia, at 11:00 pm, when at the Bricklayer's Arms.

Hello Jon,

Yes, but I think Marshall's response needs to be put into context. At the inquest Marshall noted that he'd seen Stride's body in the mortuary. The Coroner asked him how he knew she was then same woman. He replied: " I recognize her both by her face and dress. She did not then have a flower in her breast."

I think, therefore, he wasn't trying to imply that she may have been wearing a flower elsewhere on her person; he was merely drawing attention to a minor discrepancy between what he observed in the mortuary, i.e. in respect of the deceased's dress, and the way the woman he saw on the night of the murder was dressed.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

Yes, but I think Marshall's response needs to be put into context. At the inquest Marshall noted that he'd seen Stride's body in the mortuary. The Coroner asked him how he knew she was then same woman. He replied: " I recognize her both by her face and dress. She did not then have a flower in her breast."

I think, therefore, he wasn't trying to imply that she may have been wearing a flower elsewhere on her person; he was merely drawing attention to a minor discrepancy between what he observed in the mortuary and the way the woman he saw on the night of the murder was dressed.

Hi John.

Interesting that you should interpret it that way, presumably from the Daily Telegraph?

In the Times, the Coroner asked the question directly.
The CORONER. - Was she wearing a flower when you saw her? -No.
The CORONER. - Were they talking quietly? -Yes.
The CORONER. - Can you describe the man?

Daily News:
I do not think she was wearing a flower in her breast when I saw her. She and the man were talking quietly together.

Perhaps it is the way the Daily Telegraph presented their version?

[John G]

Hi John.

Interesting that you should interpret it that way, presumably from the Daily Telegraph?

In the Times, the Coroner asked the question directly.
The CORONER. - Was she wearing a flower when you saw her? -No.
The CORONER. - Were they talking quietly? -Yes.
The CORONER. - Can you describe the man?

Daily News:
I do not think she was wearing a flower in her breast when I saw her. She and the man were talking quietly together.

Perhaps it is the way the Daily Telegraph presented their version?

Hello Jon,

It was actually from Trevor Marriott's book, "Jack The Ripper: The 21st Century Investigation" (2005). I assumed it was from the official inquest record, as there is a detailed account of the inquest exchanges. However, I could be wrong. Maybe Trevor could enlighten us?

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"Frankly I think we need to work backward. Start from how she was found"

Precisely! This I have tried to do.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn, where is your scenario? I wanted to read it and see where the decision points were.

[curious4]

Hello Jon,

Maybe he didn't. However, there remains the possibility that he discussed the case with Eagle, and that there could have been a conspiracy to ensure that Schwartz gave a time which appeared to alibi Eagle and Lave. However, I personally think this is unlikely.

Hello John

Eagle was of Russian descent, Schwartz Hungarian. Hungarians and Finns can understand each other, but I don't think a Russian and a Hungarian could chat together with ease.

C4

[John G]

Hello John

Eagle was of Russian descent, Schwartz Hungarian. Hungarians and Finns can understand each other, but I don't think a Russian and a Hungarian could chat together with ease.

C4

Hello C4,

Yes, that's a good point. Russia is a Slavic language, whereas Hungarian clearly isnt. However, isn't Hungarian similar to Estonian? Could Eagle speak Estonian? However, realistically they would have needed an interpreter, which would have been risky.

[lynn cates]

Hold your hand out, knotty boy.

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks. (Lovely pun, by the way.)

Well, whatever kind of knot, it clearly had to be such that, by pulling it, it could have its radius decreased.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

devil in the details

Hello Jon.

"Given the repose of the body, it has always appeared to me that Stride was standing facing the wall, at which point she was attacked from behind."

I spent a good deal of time a couple years ago trying to get the forensic details to work out like this. My results were disappointing. (Problem, as usual, was the scarf.)

Perhaps you will be luckier. But, in your case, skill, perhaps.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

happy

Hello CD. Thanks.

Say, I'm fickle. (heh-heh)

Seriously I have never been happier--we are all FINALLY discussing forensics and trying to make sense of cachous, body position, etc.

Life is good!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

U R L

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Try here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95rqNxxbiM

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

linguistics

Hello Gwyneth. Quite right. Finno-ugric, Magyar (Hungarian) and Basque are all Dravidian based; ALL other European languages are Indo-European.

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Just a question of her lack of lower teeth. Might be irrelevant but anyway.

The sweets were described as cachous, so I'm going to make the assumption that they were hard liquorice. Would she have trouble eating them? Would someone with a lack of bottom teeth buy sweets that were solid?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Given the repose of the body, it has always appeared to me that Stride was standing facing the wall, at which point she was attacked from behind."

I spent a good deal of time a couple years ago trying to get the forensic details to work out like this. My results were disappointing. (Problem, as usual, was the scarf.)

Perhaps you will be luckier. But, in your case, skill, perhaps.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
We read in various accounts that the most preferred way an unfortunate serviced a client was for them to face, and rest against a wall/fence, leaning forward for support, with the man making entry from the rear.

This I believe was how the attack on Stride began, that she was strangled from behind while standing in this position, facing the wall.
She slowly becomes insensible, and he lowers her down to his left, onto her left side. The throat is sliced on the lower side nearest the ground, the same way we see with previous victims.

The cut to the throat was not immediately lethal, the blood slowly drained away, yet Stride apparently made no attempt to struggle, no flailing of the arms, no wriggling to turn around, no blood on her shoulders or down her front. She only had seconds to live, yet she made no attempt to struggle.

Dr. Blackwell tells us:
"She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Which indicates to me that she was unconscious at the time her throat was cut.
This, I believe, is why the body appeared so calmly laid down, she was not resisting, and he was being quiet.

[Wickerman]

... My results were disappointing. (Problem, as usual, was the scarf.)

Yes, ...the position of the scarf.

"The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

Left of what?

To the left of the spine, as viewed from the rear?
Or, to the right of the Adams Apple (ie; to the left side).

We know from medical accounts that doctors used the body as the reference when talking about "left" or "right", left being left side of the body, etc.

So the bow of the scarf was pulled "to her left side", but slightly left of the spine at the rear, not over her left shoulder.
That is how I interpret the meaning.

[lynn cates]

try it

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"This I believe was how the attack on Stride began, that she was strangled from behind while standing in this position, facing the wall."

OK. Imagine you are the killer. Have a lady friend stand in front of you against the wall. Go through the motions--in particular, with the scarf.

What do you notice?

Cheers.
LC