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  • It just hit me that one of the main Finnish newspapers is Swedish-speaking. It´s "Hufvudstadsbladet", one of the largest dailys in Finland. It contained the article Mick posted, but I can polish a bit on the language, being a Swede myself! Here goes:

    Jack the Ripper Scientist tones down the results

    On Tuesday, the British businessman Russell Edwards´ book, where it is claimed that Jack the Rippers identity has been secured with the help of a more than one hunded years old scarf, was published. According to the book, DNA- tests taken from the scarf by Louhelainen were supposed to have established that Jack the Ripper in real life ws the Polish barber Aaron Kosminski, who was one of the suspects already at the time back in London of the 1880:s.

    -I was surprised about how the writer, the publisher and the public relations bureaues wanted to get everything out of this. Already the back cover revealed that they want to take advantage of me by claiming that the mystery has now been scientifically solved, says Louhelainen who works with molecular biology at the John Moores university in Liverpool.

    - I have said in numerous interviews that the evidence would not suffice to put Jack the Ripper before a court of law.

    From Louhelainens examination, it foremost perspired that there was DNA from both one of Jack the Rippers victims and from Kosminski on the scarf. This is however not enough for the crime to be considered solved. Nor is it possible to say something conclusive about the origins of the scarf.

    -People forget that I focus on DNA. On the other hand, I have no idea about the origin of the scarf, says Louhelainen.

    So far, Louhelainen has not decided whether he is going to try to have his work peer-reviewed, for example in a scientific journal. In spite of the media circus he says that he has mostly gained positive response about his research. More than his methods, the origin of the scarf has been questioned.

    -The criticism has mainly been aimed at the writers (sic) of the book, and not at me, says Louhelainen.

    Louhelainen was surprised by how many people were still interested in the Ripper.

    -There´s a whole industry around Jack, with people who closely follow, day by day, the latest about a case that is more than a hundred years old. Edwards could hardly sleep as he waited for the results of the DNA analysis.

    Although (sic) Kosminski could proven to be guilty, there will never be any trial in the case. So what is there to learn from the new finds?

    -We have used a couple of methods that the investigation can have good use for. At the very least, this is certainly the most thorough DNA examination that has been made regarding the case.

    ++++++

    So we now have Louhelainen claiming that he has been taken advantage of, and saying that he does not know if the results will be peer-reviewed.

    On the other hand, we have the paper claiming that there is DNA from Catherine Eddowes and Aaron Kosminski on the shawl. Then again, we already know that this is an exaggeration, since all we know is that there are signs that may be DNA related to the Eddowes and Kosminski bloodlines on the shawl.

    All the best,
    Fisherman
    Last edited by Fisherman; 09-16-2014, 06:00 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
      Helena, I'm very much enjoying your wonderful book at the moment.

      Generally, I think this thread has taken several thousand posts of argument and fallings-out in order to arrive exhausted at the position laid out from the outset, clearly and concisely, in the primer provided by Casebook, linked to on the home page.

      A wasted journey, to some extent, but it was fun.
      Thank you Henry, most kind of you to say so! I've recently received an invitation to speak about my book at Scotland Yard's Crime Museum. I'll see if there are any table runners or shawls lying about.

      If it wasn't for periodic controversies and wild claims, the world of Ripperology would not be as lively as it is, that is for sure!

      Helena
      Last edited by HelenaWojtczak; 09-16-2014, 06:08 AM.
      Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

      Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robhouse View Post
        Here are close-ups of the details you were discussing. I believe the amendments were in red ink... at least it looks that way to me. As to the writing next to his name, it looks like "seen" with initials next to it, but I can't make out the initials.

        RH
        Thanks Rob

        Yes it could well be ink. The red looks like a stud pen rather than a steel one which was used for the original entry. Stud pens were uncommon until the 1900s, but they were (sort of) around in the 1880s/90s.

        I'd agree that 'Seen' is most likely
        Mick Reed

        Whatever happened to scepticism?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
          So we now have Louhelainen claiming that he has been taken advantage of, and saying that he does not know if the results will be peer-reviewed.
          Aha. Now I can say: "I told you so!"

          I suspected as much, I could discern his unease during that Radio 5 interview!

          Helena
          Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

          Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            It just hit me that one of the main Finnish newspapers is Swedish-speaking. It´s "Hufvudstadsbladet", one of the largest dailys in Finland. It contained the article Mick posted, but I can polish a bit on the language ...

            So we now have Louhelainen claiming that he has been taken advantage of, and saying that he does not know if the results will be peer-reviewed.

            On the other hand, we have the paper claiming that there is DNA from Catherine Eddowes and Aaron Kosminski on the shawl. Then again, we already know that this is an exaggeration, since all we know is that there are signs that may be DNA related to the Eddowes and Kosminski bloodlines on the shawl.

            All the best,
            Fisherman
            Thanks Christer, that's great.

            Yep, it seems that Jari is less than happy with the author and the publisher. I'm not surprised. The good old English vernacular for 'Taking advantage' is 'taking the piss', but I must not put those words in his mouth.

            He certainly hasn't been quite so forthright in the UK media that I've seen, but this seems to suggest that the posters who claim that Jari has not backed away from Edwards's claims may need to think again.

            Thanks again, Christer.
            Mick Reed

            Whatever happened to scepticism?

            Comment


            • As anyone seen this analysis?

              Hello,

              This is my first post, so please be gentle! I wonder if anyone has seen this analysis of the probability of genetic material from Kosminski's and Eddowes' haplogroup appearing on the same garment as 1.2 billion to one! the link is
              http://dna-explained.com/2014/09/08/jack-the-ripper/. Apparently Kosminski has a rare haplogroup, which the author estimates would be shared by only 7200 Londoners in 1888 out of a population of 6 million. However, the author seems to have neglected context: without a nexus connecting Kosminski to the garment, or to Eddowes, why would it be more likely to be his DNA than anyone of the other 7200 Londoners that shared his haplogroup? Quite apart from the fact that there is no evidence that the genetic material originates from 1888 or was deposited by a Londoner! Still, probably more accurate than Patricia Cornwell's approach to Sickert's DNA, where she arrived at a figure of 400,000 by, wrongly, estimating the population of the UK as 40,000,000 and then divided by 100 on the basis of a 1% incidence rate of individuals Sharing his mtDNA sequence!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mickreed View Post
                He certainly hasn't been quite so forthright in the UK media that I've seen, but this seems to suggest that the posters who claim that Jari has not backed away from Edwards's claims may need to think again.
                I work in the publishing industry and can tell you this: any quotes from Jari or claims made by him or on his behalf within the book are suspect, because the author/editor/publisher can present his findings and his attitude however they choose, and he almost certainly did not get any right to change or edit it before the book is published. So for all we know his words could be (subtly) twisted.

                To my mind, it's what Jari is saying to the press NOW that carries more weight than what is attributed to him within the book. Most especially radio interviews so we can hear it "straight from the horse's mouth."

                So many thanks to Fisherman for that translation. It speaks volumes.

                Can anyone tell me please, was Jari PAID by Edwards? If so, then I suggest that places even more doubt on the case.

                He who pays the piper....


                Helena
                Last edited by HelenaWojtczak; 09-16-2014, 06:20 AM.
                Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                Comment


                • Originally posted by John G View Post
                  without a nexus connecting Kosminski to the garment, or to Eddowes, why would it be more likely to be his DNA than anyone of the other 7200 Londoners that shared his haplogroup? Quite apart from the fact that there is no evidence that the genetic material originates from 1888 or was deposited by a Londoner!
                  Brilliant points, John.

                  Wouldn't it have been interesting if he'd had the DNA of ALL the Ripper suspects, and only Kosminski's matched?


                  Helena
                  Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                  Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post

                    Can anyone tell me please, was Jari PAID by Edwards? If so, then I suggest that places even more doubt on the case.

                    He who pays the piper....


                    Helena
                    The claim is that Jari did it gratis, in his own time, albeit using university labs presumably. Whether that's right, I don't know.

                    I've just sent the following to Adam Wood at the Ripperologist:

                    Questions I’d like to ask Jari.

                    Can he release the actual DNA results, the numbers, so that we can put them into databases like Mitosearch, to name just one?

                    Will he also release the numbers relating to the relatives that he compared the shawl data with?

                    How certain is it that the DNA is actually Eddowes and Kosminski, rather than some relative or other of theirs?

                    Even if it could be proved 100% that it was the DNA of Kate and Aaron, how do we know that it got onto the shawl at the crime scene?

                    How certain is it that the stains are human blood and ejaculate?

                    And finally (I doubt I’d get an answer) does he feel that Edwards and the publishers are taking the piss out of him?
                    Mick Reed

                    Whatever happened to scepticism?

                    Comment


                    • I have a question about the DNA from semen on the shawl.

                      Can the scientist tell that it is actually semen? Or is it just DNA to him?

                      Helena
                      Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                      Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                      Comment


                      • Far be it from me...

                        Originally posted by Mabuse View Post
                        I have found the post where I heard that the shawl lay on the floor of the Crime Museum to be photographed. It was Stewart P. Evans who said "I have photographs of it lying on the floor of the Crime Museum for photography back in May 1997..."
                        I assume there was something between it and the floor, but that it still pretty bad.
                        ...
                        them.
                        Far be it from me to want to engage in further contentious debate I will, however, comment on a point that has arisen which I can clarify.

                        I have seven photographs of the 'shawl' taken in the Crime Museum on May 29th 1997. They are not mine and I have no right to reproduce them without permission. However, I can describe what they show. There are four photographs of the 'shawl' spread full length (with the detached piece lying at the cut end) on the floor (blue carpet or carpet tiles I believe) with nothing between it and the floor. In other words it is spread unprotected and in contact with the floor surface.

                        I have three further photographs (taken on the same occasion) of the 'shawl' hanging over the side of a four-drawer filing cabinet with a potted plant (apparently standing on the 'shawl' itself) on top to prevent it falling off the cabinet.

                        This merely to clarify the above situation.
                        Last edited by Stewart P Evans; 09-16-2014, 06:33 AM.
                        SPE

                        Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post
                          I have a question about the DNA from semen on the shawl.

                          Can the scientist tell that it is actually semen? Or is it just DNA to him?

                          Helena
                          There are zero sperm heads, but there are, apparently, epithelial cells:

                          Epithelia are formed of cells that line the cavities in the body and also cover flat surfaces. Of the four major tissue types found in the human body, epithelial cells are by far the most prolific.

                          These could come from the lining of the uretha in an ejaculation, but, presumably that could also come via urine. They can come from perspiration, saliva, and almost anywhere.

                          I don't know whether the scientists could distinguish between epithelia from this different sources.
                          Mick Reed

                          Whatever happened to scepticism?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stewart P Evans View Post
                            Far be it from me to want to engage in further contentious debate I will, however, comment on a point that has arisen which I can clarify.

                            I have seven photographs of the 'shawl' taken in the Crime Museum on May 29th 1997. They are not mine and I have no right to reproduce them without permission. However, I can describe what they show. There are four photographs of the 'shawl' spread full length (with the detached piece lying at the cut end) on the floor (blue carpet or carpet tiles I believe) with nothing between it and the floor. In other words it is spread unprotected and in contact with the floor surface.

                            I have three further photographs (taken on the same occasion) of the 'shawl' hanging over the side of a four-drawer filing cabinet with a potted plant (apparently standing on the 'shawl' itself) on top to prevent it falling off the cabinet.

                            This merely to clarify the above situation.
                            Newbie or not, Stewart, you post a mean post. Thanks.
                            Mick Reed

                            Whatever happened to scepticism?

                            Comment


                            • I must admit that I would love for the DNA evidence to be nearly conclusive so that the murder of Eddowes at least, could be solved. I would be pretty pleased with Kosminski as the most likely by a wide margin, and then the Kosminski relatives coming forward and talking about family suspicions and handed down anecdotes. Sadly, I think this is going in a different direction.

                              Mike
                              huh?

                              Comment


                              • Contamination continued ...

                                Originally posted by Stewart P Evans View Post
                                I have seven photographs of the 'shawl' taken in the Crime Museum on May 29th 1997... There are four photographs of the 'shawl' spread full length (with the detached piece lying at the cut end) on the floor (blue carpet or carpet tiles I believe) with nothing between it and the floor. In other words it is spread unprotected and in contact with the floor surface.

                                I have three further photographs (taken on the same occasion) of the 'shawl' hanging over the side of a four-drawer filing cabinet with a potted plant (apparently standing on the 'shawl' itself) on top to prevent it falling off the cabinet.
                                Thanks very much for that clarification, Mr Evans.

                                All I can say is .. gawd!

                                I hope no moisture was on the bottom of that potted plant to soak into the shawl.
                                ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

                                Dr Mabuse

                                "On a planet that increasingly resembles one huge Maximum Security prison, the only intelligent choice is to plan a jail break."

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