Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[mickreed]

I actually said crikey!

Well so do I normally, G U T, but then I'm a Pom.

[GUT]

Well so do I normally, G U T, but then I'm a Pom.

Oh well you're forgiven then.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Helena

Thanks for that correction. I just listened again, and you're quite right - "just gives strong suggestion".

It's a real shame he isn't a native English speaker, because I think it's difficult for him to walk the verbal tightrope between letting us know what he really feels and not wishing to offend Mr Edwards, in what is a foreign language to him.

Also if you are operating in a foreign language it's so easy to pick the wrong word in error. Perhaps if Jari had been born English he might have said:

"My work only SUGGESTS a link between Kosminski, Eddowes and the shawl..."

If this is what he means, then the claim that the shawl proves anything is untrue.

I note that you are all still calling it a shawl when it's probably a table runner.

I just read the (freebie) Look Inside of Russell's book and I note that the entire first chapter rambles on about his personal history and his romantic life. I find that a bit weird. Is this padding?

I also saw that he has had some great reviews, but the most recent says that the book "Reads like a dog" ~ what does that mean?

Helena

[Chris]

and put on the floor of the Crime Museum at least once (!)

Do you have a source for that?

[mickreed]

Yes.

Dr. Louhelainen was clearly being far more cautious about the DNA results than any of the publicity material would indicate.

He also shows an unfamiliarity with the subject itself, and the history of the shawl, in regards to his comments about contamination.

If he knew how much it has been handled over the years - and put on the floor of the Crime Museum at least once (!) - he would probably be a lot more circumspect about the results.

That's right, Mabuse. He admits to knowing virtually nothing about the JTR case itself until recently, and I suspect he only knows what he's been told by Edwards about everything. Which means he will know very little. How that might effect his conclusions, I wouldn't know.

[RavenDarkendale]

Somehow mention the term "DNA" and people think magic takes place. How do you get Kate's DNA on a "shawl" that was never there? The rundown on her effects even mentions an empty match box, but no huge six foot piece of cloth. We are being asked to believe that the police could see an empty matchbox but not a huge cloth? It staggers the mind...

[GUT]

G'day Helena

I also saw that he has had some great reviews, but the most recent says that the book "Reads like a dog" ~ what does that mean?

Well where I am it means that the reviewer is less than pleased with the quality of what he is reading. To put it nicely.

[Chris]

Also if you are operating in a foreign language it's so easy to pick the wrong word in error. Perhaps if Jari had been born English he might have said:

"My work only SUGGESTS a link between Kosminski, Eddowes and the shawl..."

If this is what he means, then the claim that the shawl proves anything is untrue.

Obviously what we really need is a numerical estimate of the probability of the match occurring by chance. It would have been better if the book had included a technical appendix, so that people wouldn't have been left analysing the nuances of radio interviews.

I note that you are all still calling it a shawl when it's probably a table runner.

I am trying to call it a "shawl", but occasionally the quotation marks slip off in the heat of the moment.

But actually there are some interesting posts on jtrforums with links to some rather similar-looking early 19th-century silk garments, on and around page 13 of this thread:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22274

[Chris]

I also saw that he has had some great reviews, but the most recent says that the book "Reads like a dog" ~ what does that mean?

On jtrforums, Mick Reed posted a Google-translated version of a Dutch review which ended "Gun a tuxedo."

I still haven't worked that one out!

[mickreed]

If this is what he means, then the claim that the shawl proves anything is untrue.

I note that you are all still calling it a shawl when it's probably a table runner.

I just read the (freebie) Look Inside of Russell's book and I note that the entire first chapter rambles on about his personal history and his romantic life. I find that a bit weird. Is this padding?

I also saw that he has had some great reviews, but the most recent says that the book "Reads like a dog" ~ what does that mean?

Helena

Hi Helena

I've picked up a few instances where Jari uses words slightly differently that a native English speaker would and have wondered exactly what he was saying. His English is very good, and I like his persona very much. I'm sure he's kosher, as well as competent. As so many have said. Until (and if) we get his published findings, we haven't really got a lot to go on.

The first chapter does sound weird, but then so does much of the rest of the book - all that nonsense about Michaelmas, for instance.

And yes, GUT is right, at least one reviewer didn't think much of his literary skills.

[mickreed]

On jtrforums, Mick Reed posted a Google-translated version of a Dutch review which ended "Gun a tuxedo."

I still haven't worked that out.

I assumed it was a 'smoking gun', but whatever it was, it was funny - I thought. Google Translate as a source of comedy. Not quite Pete and Dud standard, but.

[mickreed]

Obviously what we really need is a numerical estimate of the probability of the match occurring by chance. It would have been better if the book had included a technical appendix, so that people wouldn't have been left analysing the nuances of radio interviews.

That's right. The numbers for the HVR1 and 2 results would help. Then we could whack them into numerous databases. Of course, it may not help Edwards's cunning plan, if we did that.

[Garry Wroe]

And then there was a lot more discussion in which he carefully qualified his position, all of which you omitted.

You’re clutching at straws, Chris. I did not misrepresent Dr Jari. He clearly stated his belief that the bloodstains on the shawl establish a connection with the Mitre Square crime scene. But here’s something that you omitted. According to Dr Jari: ‘Russell is showing the circumstantial evidence which is linked to this case. So everything is possible. You can break down any case like this. But we think that we have the most plausible scene that has happened presented in the book.’

We think that we have the most plausible scene that has happened.

Spin it any way you like, Chris. But if you want Dr Jari’s opinion as to the ‘proof’ that the shawl was at the crime scene, you need only refer to the claims contained within Mr Edwards’ book.

So let’s be clear about this. Initially Dr Jari took Mr Edwards at his word with regard to the provenance and history of the shawl. He then conducted some unspecified research of his own which, he claims, authenticated the shawl. Finally he extracted mtDNA from the shawl which, because it matched a sample derived from one of Kate Eddowes’ descendants, he took as confirmation that the shawl had indeed been at the Mitre Square crime scene.

Unfortunately it does nothing of the kind.

And for anyone who believes otherwise, I have some magic beans for sale.

What’s more, they’ve been authenticated by a scientist.

[Trevor Marriott]

It's a real shame he isn't a native English speaker, because I think it's difficult for him to walk the verbal tightrope between letting us know what he really feels and not wishing to offend Mr Edwards, in what is a foreign language to him.

Also if you are operating in a foreign language it's so easy to pick the wrong word in error. Perhaps if Jari had been born English he might have said:

"My work only SUGGESTS a link between Kosminski, Eddowes and the shawl..."

If this is what he means, then the claim that the shawl proves anything is untrue.

I note that you are all still calling it a shawl when it's probably a table runner.

I just read the (freebie) Look Inside of Russell's book and I note that the entire first chapter rambles on about his personal history and his romantic life. I find that a bit weird. Is this padding?

I also saw that he has had some great reviews, but the most recent says that the book "Reads like a dog" ~ what does that mean?

Helena

Ruff !

[Mabuse]

Do you have a source for that?

For the shawl on the floor? I believe it was photographed as such, at least that is what was said (much) earlier in the thread.

Apologies if I am in error, I cannot find the relevant post.