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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #101  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:29 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: The main point to take away from that is that there are different reasons for removing organs.

Nilsen is not a viable example, since he needed to cut his victims up in miniscule parts to be able to flush them down his tioilet. What other reasons can you suggest for cutting out the uterus, if it was not part of an offensive dismemberment? What other possible explanations can there be?

It is by no means certain that Jack the Ripper had a particular "fixation" for the uterus, and that his real shtick had more to do with the thrill he got from cutting people open, period.

I fully agree, and I think that this WAS the case. Otherwise, why would we have a cut out kidney, cut out colons, a cut out spleen, a cut out liver, cut out hearts, lungs...? Of course it was about more than the uterus - the uterus is just another part of viscera.

We know for sure that he removed more than just the uterus from his victims and, when given sufficient privacy, he almost completely emptied the corpse of Mary Kelly. Assuming that the torso killers had even more time and privacy at their disposal, why did they content themselves with such a paltry haul of trophies when they could have taken so much more?

Exactly! It proves - beyond reasonable doubt - that a complete evisceration of the bodies was not necessary for the killer to achieve his aim. Bravo, both you and me - we have seen the light! In fact, NO EVISCERATION AT ALL was necessary, as per the Pinchin Street torso!
So the killer had another agenda. Other things in these murders satisfied that agenda. The cut away face and the sawed off limbs of the 1873 torso is part of that story, as are the removed abdominal walls of Chapman, Kelly and Jackson. The destroyed face of Kelly. The cut between the intercoastals on her ribcage. The colon piece of Eddowes. These are all examples of that agenda.
I am sometimes baffled by how the killer took some parts away with him, because I would not have expected it. Maybe it was to remember the deeds by, maybe he aimed to eat them, I can´t be sure.
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  #102  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Au contraire, it is an important point. Why a sudden flurry of incautious behaviour between 1887 and 1889, to say nothing of 1873? Why, for that matter, don't we even see a flurry of cautious behaviour between those dates - i.e. more torsos turning up? People are often puzzled (unnecessarily, I think) as to why JTR claimed so few canonical victims, but surely the same applies to "the" Torso Killer; indeed, the small tally of torso victims is even less impressive than JTR's, when one considers we're looking at a time-span of nearly 20 years. What a crap serial killer he was, assuming (a) he was one person; and (b) he was a he.
A crap serial killer? Given the interest in him, I think most people disagree.

We don´t know how many times he killed. If he was identical with the Ripper, we need to take note of how he was able to change what he did. That could well have an immense bearing on how he may have killed undetected in other fashions too.

There is of course the often forgotten 1884 case that may have been him. Other cases couod have gone unnoticed. Many of the parts of the victims were never found. In the Pinchin Street case, ONE part only was found. If he had ditched that with the rest, we would not know about this murder.

Once again, the solution lies in the similarities, not in agonizing over how there are dissimilarities. No two killers will cut away the abdomens in large flaps from their victims in the same town at the same time. It does not happen.
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  #103  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:37 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Perhaps he was worried that the baby's nose might give him away.
Well, I didn´t see that one coming.
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  #104  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Fisherman,

I offer Burke and Hare as an example, they primarily killed for greed.

Paul
Yes, and they are not any useful comparisons for that reason. Monetary gain was not the motive in either of the series we are looking at. Nor did Burke and Hare anticipate access to the body - they sold it on.

But I note the effort, so thanks!
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  #105  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:41 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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A crap serial killer? Given the interest in him, I think most people disagree.
The Torso Murders* would have been a mere footnote in history if it weren't for the Whitechapel Murders. I wouldn't imagine that too many people, outside the narrow field of ripperology, have even heard about them.


* I say "Torso Murders" but, of course, there's the possibility that one or more of them could have been cases of manslaughter.
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  #106  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:44 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
You said earlier that "Eviscerations equal offensive dismemberment". Are you now saying that's not true?
I am saying that there can be exceptions, yes. Offensive dismemberment is about psychologically challenged people, who evicerate not for practical purposes but instead on account of deep psychiatric disorders.

Dennis Nilsen wanted to get rid of the victims he piled up in his lodgings. He chose to do so via the toilet, flushing the parts down. One may thus discern a purely practical reason for his taking out the viscera.
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  #107  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:45 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I don't know what you're referring to, Fish. Kindly be specific as to what this "clear link" is. If it were obvious, I'm sure I'd have spotted it.
I don´t think you would necessarily have done so, if I may be so bold. I will not tell what the link is, since I have ongoing research in the department.
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  #108  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:46 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I don´t think you would necessarily have done so, if I may be so bold. I will not tell what the link is, since I have ongoing research in the department.
If it's not obvious, then it can't be a "clear link" then, can it?
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  #109  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
The Torso Murders* would have been a mere footnote in history if it weren't for the Whitechapel Murders. I wouldn't imagine that too many people, outside the narrow field of ripperology, have even heard about them.


* I say "Torso Murders" but, of course, there's the possibility that one or more of them could have been cases of manslaughter.
It´s that little word "if" again. No matter if "if" could be reasoned away, it remains that the torso killings ARE much in vogue and much read about, interesting many people.

Incidentally, that´s as it should be, since it is a truly remarkable series.
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  #110  
Old 10-09-2017, 05:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If it's not obvious, then it can't be a "clear link" then, can it?
A link can be obvious to some, and not to others. "Obvious" is not a universal thing.
A link can be VERY clear - and absolutely correct - to some, while it is not easy to spot for everybody.

To understand the link I am talking about, some knowledge in a field I am not going to name is necessary - or at least helpful. I´m sorry if I was unclear myself to some extent.

But let´s leave this subject, since it won´t be going anywhere as it stands.
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