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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I'm not wrong. Hardly anyone has heard of the 1873-1889 torso murders, except weirdos like us.
    We make up two (2) weirdos. Have a look at how many copies of Gordons and Trows book that have been sold. And more people than have bought the books have heard about the torso murders from other sources.

    Neither you or me are going to be able to prove ourselves correct, other than in the sense that thousands and thousands of the books have been sold and so we know that thousands and thousands of people are aware of the murders - at least. Beyond that, we can´t tell.

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    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
      A little over a year, torso man struck again and an arm was found floating in some timbers owned by the John T. Chappel Company in Pimlico.
      I've added the Pimlico datum to a map of where the various body parts and/or torsos were found. This is only approximate, and based on the equivalent map in Mei Trow's book, but it should do as a rough "scatter-plot" for where the parts were found. Please note that the East End is to the right of the blue dashed line:

      Click image for larger version

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      Given that the prevailing flow of the Thames is from left to right - and it's a strong river - it seems to me that by far the largest number of body parts were likely to have been deposited into the river in the west, either staying put or drifting further east until they were found.

      For what it's worth, there seems to be a veritable cluster around the Battersea/Pimlico area, eight to ten miles away from Spitalfields. If these were all the work of one killer, then he seems to have very much favoured the western side of town, with the Pinchin Street torso being the main anomaly, possibly indicating that it was the work of a different killer anyway.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • You are right in your guess about the abdominal skin, Gareth. The Morning Advertiser clinches that:

        "There was a greater portion of skin removed on the right side than on the left."

        That´s a point for you, finally!

        Anyhow, the abdomen was said to have been laid open entirely, and that says a lot. Moreover, as I keep saying, it matters not at all if there was a difference from Kelly (or Jackson) in this respect. It is - once again - the PRACTICE that matters. Otherwise, we should vote for five killers if five women have their nose tips cut off - but not in the exact same shape.
        Last edited by Fisherman; 10-09-2017, 10:32 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          I've added the Pimlico datum to a map of where the various body parts and/or torsos were found. This is only approximate, and based on the equivalent map in Mei Trow's book, but it should do as a rough "scatter-plot" for where the parts were found. Please note that the East End is to the right of the blue dashed line:

          [ATTACH]18332[/ATTACH]

          Given that the prevailing flow of the Thames is from left to right - and it's a strong river - it seems to me that by far the largest number of body parts were likely to have been deposited into the river in the west, either staying put or drifting further east until they were found.

          For what it's worth, there seems to be a veritable cluster around the Battersea/Pimlico area, eight to ten miles away from Spitalfields. If these were all the work of one killer, then he seems to have very much favoured the western side of town, with the Pinchin Street torso being the main anomaly, possibly indicating that it was the work of a different killer anyway.
          Or he floated his packages at high tide, when the river travels backwards and floating objects can go from East to West.

          The problem is, we don´t know. On the whole, it looks like he was more likely to dump the parts from the Western parts of town. So if the Ripper and the torso killer were the same man, it - probably - predisposes that the Ripper had means to get to the Western parts of town.

          And...?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            You are right in your guess about the abdominal skin, Gareth. The Morning Advertiser clinches that:

            "There was a greater portion of skin removed on the right side than on the left."

            That´s a point for you, finally!
            One does one's best. Thanks, Fish.
            Anyhow, the abdomen was said to have been laid open entirely.
            That was the Lancet guy, not Phillips, who wrote that. There was a very early (pre-inquest) report in The Star (8th Sept 1888) which says of Chapman that "her stomach had been completely ripped open", which is possibly where the Lancet writer got the idea.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Sam Flynn: One does one's best. Thanks, Fish.

              The pleasure is all mine, I assure you.

              That was the Lancet guy, not Phillips, who wrote that. There was a very early (pre-inquest) report in The Star (8th Sept 1888) which says of Chapman that "her stomach had been completely ripped open", which is possibly where the Lancet writer got the idea.

              Once more, it is of no interest at all if the abdomen was 50, 70, or 90 per cent open. The practice only is of interest.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                Or he floated his packages at high tide, when the river travels backwards and floating objects can go from East to West.
                Not, I'd suggest, to that extent, unless they'd been in the river for weeks and weeks, which was not the case. I should add that, between the East End and Battersea, we're looking at approx 10 miles of fast-flowing river, so I doubt anything dumped in the East is going to drift that far West, at least not as consistently as we see here.
                On the whole, it looks like he was more likely to dump the parts from the Western parts of town
                Indeed. Nice to agree with you again, Fish.
                So if the Ripper and the torso killer were the same man, it - probably - predisposes that the Ripper had means to get to the Western parts of town.

                And...?
                ...Jack the Ripper operated on foot, in a very tight circle concentrated around the Spitalfields rookery. Why any man with easy access to transport, capable of travelling out West to dump body parts, would risk killing on foot in the open air, leaving bodies strewn on the roads and with the police breathing down his neck is beyond me.

                On balance, I think it more likely that the torso killer(s) operated and/or lived in West London, with the Pinchin Street killer(s) the possible exception.
                Last edited by Sam Flynn; 10-09-2017, 10:46 AM.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Sam Flynn: Not, I'd suggest, to that extent, unless they'd been in the river for weeks and weeks. Which was not the case.

                  I´ve seen it argued that parts of the women could have travelled upwards, but I am not any specialist on the river - and we have almost no tide at all in Sweden, so I will take your word for it.

                  ...Jack the Ripper operated on foot, in a very tight circle concentrated around the Spitalfields rookery. Why any man with easy access to transport, capable of travelling out west to dump body parts, would risk killing on foot in the open air, leaving bodies strewn on the roads and with the police breathing down his neck is beyond me.

                  That has been discussed before. A horse and cart is noisy and people will notice it. It will disenable flight through many passages. If the killer prioritized stealth and silence, he would be a fool to bring a horse and cart.
                  It´s another thing where we may hold different opinions, so let´s just say that there is nothing at all to tell us that since Jack operated on foot when killing in Whitechapel, he could not have had access to transport otherwise.

                  If we - for example - take a look at you-know-who, it applies that he walked to work - where he had a horse and cart.

                  Bazinga!

                  Comment


                  • On the whole, is not a lot of the arguments along the line "But would that not be strange?", "But the Ripper seems to have worked on foot!", "But the torso man seems to have been more to the West!" - arguments that are looking for possible obstacles.

                    In the end, they remain uninteresting since we know full well that the eviscerator who cut from ribs to pubes, who took out uteri, who took out colon parts, who cut the abdominal wall away in flaps, who stole rings from his victims, who was masterfully skilled with the knife actually DID manage to overcome these matters.
                    Last edited by Fisherman; 10-09-2017, 11:13 AM.

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                    • If the 1873 torso is part of the series, why did the killer wait 15 years before he murdered women on the street? How was he able to satiate his bloodlust for that long?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                        If the 1873 torso is part of the series, why did the killer wait 15 years before he murdered women on the street? How was he able to satiate his bloodlust for that long?
                        last torso before the 87/88 series was in 78? I believe.

                        but its a good point. all I would say that many serial killers seem to have big gaps(many years) in between killings.

                        perhaps he found another hobby to keep him preoccupied. or was over seas/travel. who knows.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          Not, I'd suggest, to that extent, unless they'd been in the river for weeks and weeks, which was not the case. I should add that, between the East End and Battersea, we're looking at approx 10 miles of fast-flowing river, so I doubt anything dumped in the East is going to drift that far West, at least not as consistently as we see here.Indeed. Nice to agree with you again, Fish.
                          ...Jack the Ripper operated on foot, in a very tight circle concentrated around the Spitalfields rookery. Why any man with easy access to transport, capable of travelling out West to dump body parts, would risk killing on foot in the open air, leaving bodies strewn on the roads and with the police breathing down his neck is beyond me.

                          On balance, I think it more likely that the torso killer(s) operated and/or lived in West London, with the Pinchin Street killer(s) the possible exception.
                          hi Sam
                          its a fair point. maybe he moved between the east and west.

                          can we pin point the just the 80's series?

                          and as ive said before maybe the torso victims were where he had a private place to access-perhaps that place was to the west
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                            If the 1873 torso is part of the series, why did the killer wait 15 years before he murdered women on the street? How was he able to satiate his bloodlust for that long?
                            We don´t know that he did. Since he seems to have been a show-off to some extent, we tend to believe that all his deeds must have been "showpieces". What if they were not?

                            Plus, of course, there is the 1884 Tottenham torso. That possibly narrows it down to eleven years. And Jeffrey Dahmer abstained from murder for nine years between victims 1 and 2 - but when the dam gave way, it resulted in a massive amount of victims over a short period of time between 1987 and 1991. Sixteen dead.
                            Last edited by Fisherman; 10-09-2017, 11:28 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              hi Sam
                              its a fair point. maybe he moved between the east and west.
                              More likely, he lived out west. The alternative is possible, but I'm a pragmatist
                              can we pin point the just the 80's series?
                              Here ya go, Abby

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Note that two out of the three dots past the East End dividing line were parts of from Elizabeth Jackson's body, whose torso was found around that little "cluster" in Pimlico/Battersea. In other words, the only torso/body-part found in the East End proper was the Pinchin Street torso. The so-called "Rainham Mystery" of 1887 happened much further to the East, and doesn't appear on the map.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                More likely, he lived out west. The alternative is possible, but I'm a pragmatist
                                Here ya go, Abby

                                [ATTACH]18333[/ATTACH]

                                Note that two out of the three dots past the East End dividing line were parts of from Elizabeth Jackson's body, whose torso was found around that little "cluster" in Pimlico/Battersea. In other words, the only torso/body-part found in the East End proper was the Pinchin Street torso. The so-called "Rainham Mystery" of 1887 happened much further to the East, and doesn't appear on the map.
                                If he lived out west, he travelled to Whitechapel to kill in the autumn of 1888. Which is more of an issue to me, but in no way whatsoever impossible.

                                By the way, Gareth, a pragmatist would immediately realize that the many similarities inbetween the victims in the series point to one killer only. That´s pragmatism for you!
                                Last edited by Fisherman; 10-09-2017, 11:59 AM.

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