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  #71  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:44 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
This of course is the big issue with relying on press reports.
Yup. What appears to be two, or more, sources might be just the one, and if the original contains errors the copies usually inherit them.
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  #72  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:20 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
The Morning Advertiser also says still running.

That leaves several possible alternatives does it not.

1. Mizen sees bleeding when he first arrives( however this is certainly only slight flow under gravity, NOT under pressure).

2. Mizen sees bleeding when he returns with the ambulance.

Following on from these we have further choices

3. The bleeding has stopped at least once and restarted due to movement or/and examination.

4. The wounds are such that bleeding never fully stops, due to the examinations and movements of the body.

All are medically viable, however the weight of reports suggests that Mizen's observation is after the return of the ambulance. While one cannot be 100% certain of this, it seems the most likely.

What however is clear is that the bleeding is not under pressure.
What is good to note is Christer now apparently seems to accept that Neil most probably did not see bleeding under pressure.


Steve
Hi El and everyone else.

I was just curious what everyones take on this is.

Apparently there was still some sort of blood flow, oozing, movement whatever from Pollys neck wound when it was noticed.


Given everything we know about it-her position when found, the time of night, temp, size of the wound etc. whats your outer limit on when you think that wound could have been made?


two hours beforw her discovery? four ? 30 minutes?
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  #73  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:06 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
The Morning Advertiser also says still running.

That leaves several possible alternatives does it not.

1. Mizen sees bleeding when he first arrives( however this is certainly only slight flow under gravity, NOT under pressure).

2. Mizen sees bleeding when he returns with the ambulance.

Following on from these we have further choices

3. The bleeding has stopped at least once and restarted due to movement or/and examination.

4. The wounds are such that bleeding never fully stops, due to the examinations and movements of the body.

All are medically viable, however the weight of reports suggests that Mizen's observation is after the return of the ambulance. While one cannot be 100% certain of this, it seems the most likely.

What however is clear is that the bleeding is not under pressure.
What is good to note is Christer now apparently seems to accept that Neil most probably did not see bleeding under pressure.


Steve
Hi Steve,

Firstly, it seems quite clear to me that Fish's post #6 was highly misleading, and I'm not suggesting this was deliberate. A little more care taken over his use of the numbers 1 to 4 to illustrate his argument could have saved everyone's time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
There are a number of layers involved:

1. Mizen goes to Bucks Row.
2. Mizen sees that there is blood flowing, appearing fresh.
3. Mizen is sent for an ambulance.
4. Mizen returns with the ambulance and helps placing the corpse on it.

The Daily News has it 1-3-2-4.

The Daily Telegraph has it 1-3-2.

The Morning Advertiser has it 1-3-4-2.

Only the Echo has a clear and logical sequence, EXPLAINING why the order never turned out 1-2-3-4, not even with themselves, who had it 1-3-2, but were able to clarify how it actually went down.
It's all very well to claim afterwards that his first number 2 - Mizen seeing the blood - was never meant to represent the same thing as his subsequent number 2s, and that this was clear from the actual newspaper quotes he used earlier in the post, where the blood wasn't mentioned. But really, is it any wonder people get frustrated, when Fish refuses to see any problem here? If Fish's number 2s are not the same, when used within the same post to make a direct comparison between his 'layers' and what the papers say, there's something very wrong, isn't there? Perhaps he should see a bowel specialist or at least go for softer loo paper.

Secondly, assuming Nichols was dead when Mizen eventually made it to the scene, there would be no more bleeding under pressure by then anyway, so whenever he saw what looked to him like 'fresh' blood still running, it would have been due to leakage from the wound and gravity. She had 8 pints of it to start with, so there must have been a fair bit still inside her in liquid form, not pumping, but gradually draining downwards internally as she was lifted onto the ambulance. You only have to cut your finger with a knife to know it can start oozing or dripping blood again at any time after initially stopping, if you knock it during the healing process. Was there literally no liquid blood left in the area of the throat wound by the time Nichols was moved, which could have run out and downwards if the very recent wound was disturbed? Just the way she was lifted could have caused her head and shoulders to be lower than the rest of her for a few seconds.

Thirdly, the newspaper sources don't need to be interpreted in the way Fish does, and I can't even see why he wants to put Mizen's bleeding observation before he is sent for the ambulance, when it seems to me far more likely that it came about when Mizen himself "assisted to remove the body". Neil seems to have sent Mizen off for the ambulance pretty sharpish, so how long would Mizen have had in reality to stay and gawp at the corpse and make his observation, with Neil standing there tutting, wondering when the silly constable was going to do what he was told and stop impersonating a doctor?

Love,

Caz
X
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Last edited by caz : 06-26-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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  #74  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:14 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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How "fresh" can blood be anyway, when viewed in a dark alley by the glow of a bulldog lamp?
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  #75  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:30 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi El and everyone else.

I was just curious what everyones take on this is.

Apparently there was still some sort of blood flow, oozing, movement whatever from Pollys neck wound when it was noticed.


Given everything we know about it-her position when found, the time of night, temp, size of the wound etc. whats your outer limit on when you think that wound could have been made?


two hours beforw her discovery? four ? 30 minutes?

I honestly dont think we can give a definitive answer to that question.

If we had a report which said it had stopped at some point we would be in a better position.
The best we probably have is Llewellyn and he indicates that the flow was no more than a trickle, it may even have stopped but he is not clear on that, so not safe to assume so.

The "blood evidence " theory, unfortunately does not really work, for several reasons, one of those being we have no reported stoppage, but that is not the only problem with it.

It is also extremely unlikely from the reports we have that Neil saw blood pumping under pressure.

If we accept the Neck as cause of Death, that gives a time frame of under 4 minutes from cut to heart failing. However if we go with Christer's suggesting of the abdomen wound being fatal, we are in all probaility looking at less than a minute.
Which is the cause is also open to debate. The saturated clothing and clotts between clothing suggest the neck, but it is not 100%.


A best bet would be be sometime within 10-15 minutes of Neil arriving at the site. That of course fits well within his last round of the beat.

If we accept for the sake of argument that Lechmere was not the killer, the cuts were probably made sometime in the previous 10 minutes.
I honestly do not feel we can be anymore pricise.


Hope that helps Abby


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 06-26-2018 at 08:48 AM.
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  #76  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:35 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
Hi Steve,

Firstly, it seems quite clear to me that Fish's post #6 was highly misleading, and I'm not suggesting this was deliberate. A little more care taken over his use of the numbers 1 to 4 to illustrate his argument could have saved everyone's time!



It's all very well to claim afterwards that his first number 2 - Mizen seeing the blood - was never meant to represent the same thing as his subsequent number 2s, and that this was clear from the actual newspaper quotes he used earlier in the post, where the blood wasn't mentioned. But really, is it any wonder people get frustrated, when Fish refuses to see any problem here? If Fish's number 2s are not the same, when used within the same post to make a direct comparison between his 'layers' and what the papers say, there's something very wrong, isn't there? Perhaps he should see a bowel specialist or at least go for softer loo paper.

Secondly, assuming Nichols was dead when Mizen eventually made it to the scene, there would be no more bleeding under pressure by then anyway, so whenever he saw what looked to him like 'fresh' blood still running, it would have been due to leakage from the wound and gravity. She had 8 pints of it to start with, so there must have been a fair bit still inside her in liquid form, not pumping, but gradually draining downwards internally as she was lifted onto the ambulance. You only have to cut your finger with a knife to know it can start oozing or dripping blood again at any time after initially stopping, if you knock it during the healing process. Was there literally no liquid blood left in the area of the throat wound by the time Nichols was moved, which could have run out and downwards if the very recent wound was disturbed? Just the way she was lifted could have caused her head and shoulders to be lower than the rest of her for a few seconds.

Thirdly, the newspaper sources don't need to be interpreted in the way Fish does, and I can't even see why he wants to put Mizen's bleeding observation before he is sent for the ambulance, when it seems to me far more likely that it came about when Mizen himself "assisted to remove the body". Neil seems to have sent Mizen off for the ambulance pretty sharpish, so how long would Mizen have had in reality to stay and gawp at the corpse and make his observation, with Neil standing there tutting, wondering when the silly constable was going to do what he was told and stop impersonating a doctor?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz, a very good fair post.


Steve
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  #77  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:52 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I honestly dont think we can give a definitive answer to that question.

If we had a report which said it had stopped at some point we would be in a better position.
The best we probably have is Llewellyn and he indicates that the flow was no more than a trickle, it may even have stopped but he is not clear on that, so not safe to assume so.

The "blood evidence " theory, unfortunately does not really work, for several reasons, one of those being we have no reported stoppage, but that is not the only problem with it.

It is also extremely unlikely from the reports we have that Neil saw blood pumping under pressure.

If we accept the Neck as cause of Death, that gives a time frame of under 4 minutes from cut to heart failing. However if we go with Christer's suggesting of the abdomen wound being fatal, we are in all probaility looking at less than a minute.
Which is the cause is also open to debate. The saturated clothing and clotts between clothing suggest the neck, but it is not 100%.


A best bet would be be sometime within 10-15 minutes of Neil arriving at the site. That of course fits well within his last round of the beat.

If we accept for the sake of argument that Lechmere was not the killer, the cuts were probably made sometime in the previous 10 minutes.
I honestly do not feel we can be anymore pricise.


Hope that helps Abby


Steve
thanks el

yes it helps a lot!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #78  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:08 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Given the timings of the police beat and Els opinion (I agree) then if Polly was murdered 15 minutes to being discovered, we have basically have 2 possible killers-lech and Anon.


To me its a tight time frame and the police beat timings narrows things down considerably IMHO.


of course we could consider Neil as another possibility, knowing he was last there within 10-15 minutes.


thoughts? comments?
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #79  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:44 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Given the timings of the police beat and Els opinion (I agree) then if Polly was murdered 15 minutes to being discovered, we have basically have 2 possible killers-lech and Anon.


To me its a tight time frame and the police beat timings narrows things down considerably IMHO.


of course we could consider Neil as another possibility, knowing he was last there within 10-15 minutes.


thoughts? comments?

Abby,

That of course is very true, if Neil lied he could be in the frame. Personally I think he is one of the very few who does not lie in the whole sorry episode.

Another is Llewellyn, while i disagree with is views on some issues, i do not consider he ever knowingly attempted to misleaad or withhold anything, i simply consider him honestly out of his depth.

Two others whom i think are basically honest are Kirby and Purkiss.

Lechmere is of course accused of Lying, and Paul misleads in his Lloyds article, taking the lead role.

Tomkins, withholds and plays games,

Thain is not 100% about his cape.

Mrs Green certainly tries to mislead about girls in the area.

The whole mortuary debacle reflect poorly on all with the possible exception of Robert Mann.

Almost forgot, i think Mizen doqes not tell the whole truth.

No wonder it hard to work out what really occurred

Steve
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  #80  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:49 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Cross said that he had not seen a policeman between leaving Bucks Row and meeting PC Mizen.

This was because he had not seen a policeman, which suggests that PC Neil was not where he said he was at 3.45 am.

Mizen on the other hand told the inquest that he was informed by a carman who passed in company with another man that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's Row.

This was the policeman Cross hadn't seen, the policeman who wasn't there when he should have been.

It doesn't take a great deal of brain cudgeling to work out what was going on here.

Regards,

Simon
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