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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Swanson, Chief Inspector Donald

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  #11  
Old 03-07-2008, 06:09 AM
Septic Blue
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
... is Bromley Workhouse the Stepney Union Workhouse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Septic Blue View Post
Colloquialisms abounded in Swanson’s day, and still do:

__ “Bromley Workhouse”
__ “South Grove Workhouse”
__ “Gray’s Inn Road Workhouse”
__ “Baker’s Row Infirmary”
__ “Shoe Lane Casual Ward”
__ “Golden Lane Mortuary”
__ “St. George’s in the East”
__ “High Street, Stepney”
__ “High Street, Norton Folgate”
__ “High Street, Aldgate”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Septic Blue View Post
... the use of vernacular can confuse any landscape, and should therefore be avoided. While some of the examples listed above, can cause little-to-no confusion (i.e., "Shoe Lane Casual Ward"), and admittedly are quite harmless; others can cause a great deal of confusion (i.e., "Bromley Workhouse"), and quite literally are detrimental to our understanding of this case. Our beloved "Stepney Workhouse", of course, falls into the latter category, when used in any context other than an abbreviated reference to Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard.
Hi Debs,

"Bromley Workhouse" and Stepney Union Workhouse were indeed, one and the same !!!

While I'm at it, I think I'll address the entire list:


__ “Bromley Workhouse”
__ Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard’s Street, Bromley St. Leonard


__ “South Grove Workhouse”
__ Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South Grove, Mile End Old Town


__ “Gray’s Inn Road Workhouse”
__ Holborn Union Workhouse, Gray’s Inn Road, St. Andrew Holborn Above the Bars


__ “Baker’s Row Infirmary”
__ Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker’s Row, Mile End New Town


__ “Shoe Lane Casual Ward”
__ City of London Union Casual Ward, Robin Hood Court, Shoe Lane, St. Andrew Holborn, City of London



__ “Golden Lane Mortuary”
__ City of London Mortuary, Golden Lane, St. Giles Without Cripplegate, City of London


__ “St. George’s in the East”
__ St. George in the East


__ “High Street, Stepney”
__ Stepney Green


__ “High Street, Norton Folgate”
__ Norton Folgate


__ “High Street, Aldgate”
__ Aldgate



Of course, there were in 1888, and continue to be to this day, dozens upon dozens of popular colloquialisms, which can easily stand in the way of meaningful research.


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Old 03-07-2008, 05:35 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Cheers Colin! I knew you would know, good job we've got you

Anyway, that answers something Scot mentioned then, the Stepney Union Workhouse records do still exist, under the guise of the Bromley workhouse records at the LMA. I was looking at the film the other weekend without realising they were the same place. There's admissions and discharge registers plus a section of details and casenotes on patients sent on to Colney Hatch, not sure of the covering years though.
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:32 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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I just noticed that the Booth catalogue has this description;

The series also covered the "unoccupied classes" and inmates of institutions, including named case histories giving the causes of pauperisation for Bromley and Stepney workhouse inmates and recipients of outdoor relief from the Stepney Union.

...an either, or, and, situation?
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
If anyone doesn't like/agree with "The Facts" then I suggest they get off their fat backside and spend eighteen months writing a book of their own to show us all how it should be done.

Either put up or shut up.
Authorship of published work is not prerequisite to the leveling of criticism, toward the published work of others; just as prior experience as a head of state is not prerequisite to the leveling of criticism, toward an incumbent.

So, I suggest that you shut up !!!

If you wish to take issue with the specific points that I have addressed, then be my guest. But don't try telling me that Begg's work is off limits: It's not !!! Especially in light of his feeble attempt to push a square peg into a round hole, in order to circumvent one of the difficult questions that must be asked of the so-called Swanson Marginalia.

In his book, "Jack the Ripper: The Facts", Begg has stated as an absolute matter of fact, that Mile End Old Town Workhouse had become "Stepney Workhouse", by 1910. It hadn't !!! And, it never did !!! Excepting possibly, by way of some sort of vernacular reference, that Swanson himself might have used.

Begg has responded to my criticisms, by waffling around an issue that goes beyond his understanding of the political geography of Victorian London. In so doing, he has insisted that the possibility that Swanson simply referred colloquially to Mile End Old Town Workhouse as "Stepney Workhouse", has been his line of reasoning from the onset. It has been mine: Not his !!!

From: "Jack the Ripper: The Facts", by Paul Begg
pg. 378: "... the expanding Borough of Stepney absorbed Mile End Old Town in 1901, so, when Swanson wrote nine years later, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse."

"was": Begg's emphasis

That's
"was Stepney Workhouse"; with no semblance of any qualifier !!!

That The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town came to be situated within The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney is correct. But that barely scratches the surface of the hamlet's 1,000-year history as a component of all things "Stepney"; and provides Begg a rudimentary schoolboy solution to one of the glaring inconsistencies between the purported assertions of Donald Swanson and the documented fate of Aaron Kosminski.

I will be addressing this issue further, on the "Stepney Workhouse" thread: Particularly with regard to comments made during "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008.
It's long; long-winded; and somewhat disjointed !!! It lacks a fluid narrative; and is burdened with redundancies !!! My Apologies !!!

I simply haven't found the time to put together a more polished product. However, I believe that I have covered most of the relevant points. If the reader is willing to sift a little, here and there, I think that my message will be conveyed.

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Jonathan Menges: "Martin Fido, in his book, "The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper", makes the point that there was no workhouse called the "Stepney Workhouse". In fact, "Stepney" encompassed a good half-dozen different workhouses, all having different names. There was the Mile End Workhouse; there was the Limehouse; Ratcliff; St. Leonard's Street Workhouse, which is sometimes referred to as the "Stepney Union Workhouse". And in your book "The Facts" you posit that Swanson meant the Mile End Workhouse, or could have meant the Mile End Workhouse, when he referred to it as the "Stepney Workhouse"."

"… there was no workhouse called "The Stepney Workhouse"."

From: "The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper", by Martin Fido
pg. 228: "Swanson's notes were not one hundred percent accurate: there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

"there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse'"

Fido does not "make the point"; he makes a claim: One, which was plainly and simply wrong.

There most certainly was a "Stepney Workhouse" !!!

Stepney Poor Law Union (1836-1921); Limehouse Poor Law Parish (1921-1925)
- St. John of Wapping
- St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- St. Anne Limehouse
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town (1836–1857)

___ Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard (1863-1921)
___ Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum, Devon's Road, Bromley St. Leonard (1871-1930?) – A Poor Law infirmary, shared by the Poor Law Unions of Poplar and Stepney (Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum District) – If the "Kosminski" purportedly named by Swanson was in fact, entrusted to the care of the Guardians of Stepney Poor Law Union, then he was in all likelihood, admitted to this facility, as opposed to Stepney Union Workhouse


I believe we can rest assured that a typical abbreviated reference to Stepney Union Workhouse, would have been "Stepney Workhouse"; just as a typical abbreviated reference to Whitechapel Union Workhouse would surely have been "Whitechapel Workhouse"; Poplar Union Workhouse – "Poplar Workhouse"; City of London Union Infirmary – "City of London Infirmary" or "City Infirmary"; etc …

"there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

Fido pulled that one out of his aft end !!! Period !!!

The relatively small portion of The Hamlet of Wapping, in St. Dunstan Stepney, which extended along its western boundary with the Middlesex portion of St. Botolph Without Aldgate (aka, "East Smithfield"), and its southern boundary with the River Thames, became part of St. Mary Whitechapel, at some point in the sixteenth century (?). It was hence referred to as "Wapping Whitechapel", until being designated a Civil Parish itself, St. John of Wapping, in 1694. The remaining portion of the hamlet was referred to as "Wapping Stepney", until it too was designated a Civil Parish, St. George in the East, in 1723. There was no subsequent connection of any kind, between St. George in the East and the name "Stepney"; until the inclusion of St. George in the East in the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900.

Returning to: "Rippercast", Episode 15
Jonathan Menges: "In fact, "Stepney" encompassed a good half-dozen different workhouses, all having different names. There was the Mile End Workhouse; there was the Limehouse; Ratcliff; St. Leonard's Street Workhouse, which is sometimes referred to as the "Stepney Union Workhouse". And in your book "The Facts" you posit that Swanson meant the Mile End Workhouse, or could have meant the Mile End Workhouse, when he referred to it as the "Stepney Workhouse"."

"In fact, "Stepney" encompassed a good half-dozen different workhouses, all having different names. There was the Mile End Workhouse; there was the Limehouse; Ratcliff; St. Leonard's Street Workhouse, which is sometimes referred to as the "Stepney Union Workhouse"."

Jonathan has quite clearly taken a glimpse at "The Workhouse":
http://workhouses.org/
Workhouse Locations / English Poor Law Unions / London: Middlesex / Stepney

But, he would do well to go back for a second perusal:

Stepney Poor Law Union (1836-1921); Limehouse Poor Law Parish (1921-1925)
- St. John of Wapping
- St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- St. Anne Limehouse
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town (1836–1857)


"Mile End Old Town Workhouse"
This Poor Law facility was utilized by The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town prior to its inclusion in the newly established Stepney Poor Law Union, in 1836. It was then utilized by Stepney Poor Law Union as a workhouse for the accommodation of able-bodied male inmates, until The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town was removed from the Union, in 1857, and designated a Poor Law Parish in itself. The foundation stone was then laid for the construction of a new workhouse facility (workhouse; infirmary; casual ward) at the opposite end of Alderney Road (formerly Alderney Place), on the eastern side of its junction with Bancroft Road. This was the facility (specifically; Mile End Old Town Infirmary), to which Aaron Kosminski was admitted on two separate occasions.

"Wapping Workhouse" (not mentioned by Jonathan)
This Poor Law facility was utilized by St. John of Wapping prior to its inclusion in the newly established Stepney Poor Law Union, in 1836. It was then utilized by Stepney Poor Law Union in its original capacity (workhouse), until the construction of a new workhouse facility (Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard) was completed in 1863.

"Limehouse Workhouse"
This Poor Law facility was utilized by St. Anne Limehouse prior to its inclusion in the newly established Stepney Poor Law Union, in 1836. It was then utilized by Stepney Poor Law Union as an infirmary and school for boys and girls.

"The Ratcliffe Workhouse Site"
This Poor Law facility was utilized by The Hamlet of Ratcliff prior to its inclusion in the newly established Stepney Poor Law Union, in 1836. It was then utilized by Stepney Poor Law Union as a casual ward and Board of Guardians' offices.

"The St. Leonard’s Street Workhouse"
(Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard)
This Poor Law facility was built by Stepney Poor Law Union in 1863, and officially designated "Stepney Union Workhouse". It was not, as Jonathan indicated: "St. Leonard's Street Workhouse, which is sometimes referred to as "The Stepney Union Workhouse"."

Again; this facility was officially designated "Stepney Union Workhouse" !!! Any other references, such as "St. Leonard's Street Workhouse" or "Bromley Workhouse" were colloquialisms. And, as stated previously; I believe we can rest assured that a typical abbreviated reference to Stepney Union Workhouse, would have been "Stepney Workhouse".

The London Government Act, 1899, which established the twenty eight Metropolitan Boroughs of The County of London (i.e., The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney), did not provide for any transfers of responsibility for Poor Law administration within the metropolis. Responsibility for Poor Law administration throughout England and Wales, in fact, remained with existing Poor Law Parishes and Poor Law Unions, until the passage of The Local Government Act, 1929. Implementation of this act, in 1930, brought an end to the Poor Law system, and transferred responsibility for the provision of 'poor relief' (public assistance / welfare) to existing County Councils.

In other words; the Councils of the newly established Metropolitan Boroughs, in The County of London, did not have jurisdiction over the Boards of Guardians of existing Poor Law Parishes and/or Poor Law Unions, within their established boundaries. As such, Poor Law facilities (workhouses; infirmaries; casual wards) were not re-named to suit the Metropolitan Boroughs, in which they were located. There is no precedent, therefore, - none, whatsoever - for the notion that Mile End Old Town Workhouse became "Stepney Workhouse", with the inclusion of The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town in the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900.

An interesting caveat:

A Poor Law facility such as a workhouse, infirmary or casual ward was typically named for the Poor Law Parish or Poor Law Union, having ownership and responsibility for its operations; regardless of any detachment that might have existed between the respective parish or union of parishes, and the actual location of the facility itself.

A most relevant case in point:

Stepney Union Workhouse, named specifically for Stepney Poor Law Union (St. John of Wapping; St. Paul Shadwell; The Hamlet of Ratcliff; St. Anne Limehouse), was not located within the boundaries of that union. In fact, it was built on land acquired by Stepney Union, in the Ancient Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; which was itself never a component of anything "Stepney": The Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney; Stepney Poor Law Union; Stepney Registration District; Stepney Division of The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets; The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney; etc …

Returning once again, to: "Rippercast", Episode 15
Jonathan Menges: "And in your book "The Facts" you posit that Swanson meant the Mile End Workhouse, or could have meant the Mile End Workhouse, when he referred to it as the "Stepney Workhouse"."

"... you posit that Swanson … could have meant the Mile End Workhouse, when he referred to it as the "Stepney Workhouse"."

Begg posited no such thing !!! He stated as an absolute matter of fact: "... when Swanson wrote nine years later, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse."

"was": Begg's emphasis

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "If Aaron Kosminski was "Kosminski"; then Swanson obviously made a mistake."

"… then Swanson obviously made a mistake."

Would that be Donald Swanson; or perhaps Jim Swanson ???

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "It seems to me that it's only right to suggest a plausible explanation for that mistake."

That Mile End Old Town Workhouse "was Stepney Workhouse" is by no means whatsoever, a "plausible explanation".

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "By 1910, Mile End Old Town had been absorbed by the Borough of Stepney. It was at that point, part of Stepney. And so, it just seems worthwhile making the point that maybe Swanson said "Stepney Workhouse"; because at that time, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was in the Borough of Stepney."

From: "The Facts"
pg. 378: "It should be observed, however, that the expanding Borough of Stepney absorbed Mile End Old Town in 1901, so, when Swanson wrote nine years later, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse."

Again; that The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town came to be situated within The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney is correct. But that barely scratches the surface of the hamlet's 1,000-year history as a component of all things "Stepney"; and provides Begg a rudimentary schoolboy solution to one of the glaring inconsistencies between the purported assertions of Donald Swanson and the documented fate of Aaron Kosminski.

"… maybe Swanson said "Stepney Workhouse"; because at that time, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was in the Borough of Stepney."

Perhaps he did !!! But a crucial component of this issue is the fact that the actual location of a Poor Law facility (workhouse; infirmary; casual ward) rarely, if ever, had any bearing on the official nomenclature of that facility.

*** Again:

The actual location of a Poor Law facility rarely, if ever, had any bearing on the official nomenclature of that facility.

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "It’s not a big deal! I'm not trying to say that this is an explanation for Swanson; and I would have hoped that that would have come across in the book."

"It's not a big deal!"

It most certainly is a big deal !!! It is a huge thorn in the side of the so-called Swanson Marginalia !!!

"I'm not trying to say that this is an explanation for Swanson; and I would have hoped that that would have come across in the book."

What comes across in the book is just what Begg claimed:

"… when Swanson wrote nine years later, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse."

Nothing more; nothing less !!!

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Jonathan Menges: ""Stepney Workhouse" could have been used as a catch-all phrase to encompass the system of workhouses, located in that borough."


It wasn't !!! And, there was no "system” of workhouses under the jurisdiction of any municipal borough council, anywhere in England or Wales.

Again; the Councils of the newly established Metropolitan Boroughs, in The County of London, did not have jurisdiction over the Boards of Guardians of existing Poor Law Parishes and/or Poor Law Unions, within their established boundaries. As such, Poor Law facilities (workhouses; infirmaries; casual wards) were not re-named to suit the Metropolitan Boroughs, in which they were located. There is no precedent, therefore, - none, whatsoever - for the notion that Mile End Old Town Workhouse became "Stepney Workhouse", with the inclusion of The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town in the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900.

------------

That Swanson himself, might have referred colloquially to Mile End Old Town Workhouse as "Stepney Workhouse", is my train of thought: Not Begg’s !!!

Again; "... when Swanson wrote nine years later, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse."

My reasons for believing that Swanson might have referred colloquially to Mile End Old Town Workhouse as "Stepney Workhouse" go well beyond the reality that The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town became part of the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900. They also go well beyond both Martin Fido's and Paul Begg's understanding of the political geography of Victorian London.

From its beginnings, the Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney was bounded to the north by the Ancient Parishes of St. Leonard Shoreditch and St. John at Hackney; to the east by the River Lea and the Ancient Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; to the south by the River Thames; and to the west by the Ancient Parishes of St. Botolph Without Aldgate and again, St. Leonard Shoreditch.

From approximately 1329 to 1817, most of the hamlets within St. Dunstan Stepney were designated as separate Civil Parishes:

- St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- Christ Church Spitalfields
- St. Mary Whitechapel
- St. John of Wapping
- St. George in the East
- St. Paul Shadwell
- St. Anne Limehouse
- St. Mary Stratford Bow
- All Saints Poplar

The following hamlets remained within St. Dunstan Stepney:

- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff

In 1836, in accordance with The Poor Law Amendment Act, 1834, The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town became part of the newly established Stepney Poor Law Union / Stepney Registration District:

- St. John of Wapping
- St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- St. Anne Limehouse
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

From 1837-1841, several Ecclesiastical Parishes were established within The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, in St. Dunstan Stepney:

- Holy Trinity Stepney
- St. Philip Stepney
- St. Peter Stepney
- St. Thomas Stepney

In 1857, The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town was removed from Stepney Poor Law Union / Stepney Registration District, and designated a Poor Law Parish / Registration District in itself.

From 1858 to 1880, several additional Ecclesiastical Parishes were established within The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, each having the designation "Stepney" as part of its name.

In 1866/67 the three remaining hamlets of St. Dunstan Stepney; Mile End New Town, Mile End Old Town and Ratcliff were designated Civil Parishes in themselves. However, 'old habits die hard', and even the Ordnance Surveys of 1870-1874 identified these hamlets as being part of St. Dunstan Stepney.


In accordance with The Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885; that portion of The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, which lay south of Mile End Road and west of Regent's Canal was designated Stepney Division, Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, and granted representation through its own elected MP. The remaining portion of the hamlet was designated Mile End Division, Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, and granted similar representation, accordingly.

While St. Dunstan's Church, St. Dunstan Stepney was actually situated within The Hamlet of Ratcliff, the broad area generally known as "Stepney" was situated within The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town. This included of course, Stepney Green, which was known colloquially as "Stepney High Street".

The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town had a very close association with the name "Stepney" for the better part of a thousand years prior to its inclusion in the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900. This is why my train of thought from the beginning of this argument, has been that Swanson might have referred colloquially to Mile End Old Town Workhouse as "Stepney Workhouse".


Again; this goes well beyond the reality that The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town became part of the newly established Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, in 1900. It also goes well beyond both Martin Fido's and Paul Begg's understanding of the political geography of Victorian London.

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "It's now all Tower Hamlets. Tower Hamlets was a small area at one stage."

"Tower Hamlets was a small area at one stage."

From its inception:

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets (1832-1885):
- St. John at Hackney (1832-1867)
- St. Leonard Shoreditch (1832-1867)
- St. Matthew Bethnal Green (1832-1867)
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- Christ Church Spitalfields

- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- Holy Trinity Minories
- St. Mary Whitechapel (Middlesex portion)
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- St. Botolph Without Aldgate (Middlesex portion) (aka, "East Smithfield")
- St. John of Wapping
- St. George in the East
- St. Paul Shadwell

- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- St. Anne Limehouse
- St. Mary Stratford Bow

- Bromley St. Leonard
- All Saints Poplar


- having the representation of two elected Members of Parliament.

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets (1885-1918):
Whitechapel Division
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- Christ Church Spitalfields

- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- Holy Trinity Minories
- St. Mary Whitechapel (Middlesex portion)
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- St. Botolph Without Aldgate (Middlesex portion) (aka, "East Smithfield")

St. George Division
- St. John of Wapping
- St. George in the East


Mile End Division
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town: That portion, which lay north of Mile End Road and/or east of Regent's Canal

Stepney Division
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town: That portion, which lay south of Mile End Road and west of Regent's Canal

Limehouse Division
- St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- St. Anne Limehouse


Bow & Bromley Division
- St. Mary Stratford Bow
- Bromley St. Leonard: A portion, which constituted approximately two thirds (northern) of the parish

Poplar Division
- Bromley St. Leonard: A portion, which constituted approximately one third (southern) of the parish
- All Saints Poplar

- having the representation of one elected Member of Parliament, for each Division.

Again; "Tower Hamlets was a small area at one stage."

It was ??? hmmmmmm !!!

From: "Rippercast", Episode 15; "Paul Begg: A to Z", May 25, 2008
Paul Begg: "Today, I might refer to Whitechapel being in Tower Hamlets: Because it is! It wasn’t back then! But it is now!"

"… I might refer to Whitechapel being in Tower Hamlets: Because it is! It wasn’t back then!"

It wasn't ??? hmmmmmm !!!

My reasons for bringing Begg's references to Tower Hamlets into the fray:

- They were made specifically during the discussion of "Stepney Workhouse"

- They serve as a very good indication that Begg – like Fido - is not an authority in all facets of Victorian London; or for that matter, all facets of the Victorian East End.

I believe that an acknowledgment from all parties concerned, that absolutely no one is qualified to speak with authority on all facets of Victorian London, would enable us all to get somewhere, with this discussion.


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Old 05-31-2008, 02:03 AM
Rob Clack Rob Clack is offline
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Just a small add on to Colin's short post.
When Rose Mylett was in the 'Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum' 20 January 1888 to 9 March 1888, under 'Name and Address of nearest relation', her daughter Florence is list and her place of residence was 'in Stepney Workhouse'. I checked in the registers for Stepney Union Workhouse and she is listed there. Also Stepney Union Workhouse was known as 'Bromley House'

Rob
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Old 05-31-2008, 02:39 AM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Who else Rob? And any later time periods available?
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Old 05-31-2008, 01:25 PM
Rob Clack Rob Clack is offline
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Hi Scott,

I checked up to March 1891 for Kosminski with no luck. There are some missing dates (January 89 if I remember correctly) and some of the names are illegible due to stains covering some pages. There are later dates. It goes up to 1923 when it closed temporarily, and then from 1926 to 1931.
All those dates I believe are covered on Microfilm.

Rob
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:02 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Clack View Post
When Rose Mylett was in the 'Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum' 20 January 1888 to 9 March 1888, under 'Name and Address of nearest relation', her daughter Florence is list and her place of residence was 'in Stepney Workhouse'. I checked in the registers for Stepney Union Workhouse and she is listed there. Also Stepney Union Workhouse was known as 'Bromley House'
It may be worth adding that of the seven references to "Stepney Workhouse" in the Times Digital Archive 1785-1985 from the period after the building of the St Leonard's Street workhouse in the early 1860s, five are clearly to the Stepney Union Workhouse, one doesn't give sufficient information to identify which workhouse is meant and the other is to "the old Stepney Workhouse, Ratcliff", which according to Peter Higginbotham's site had previously been the parish workhouse.

The report of the closure of the St Leonard's Street workhouse, printed on 21 August 1923, entitled "Stepney Workhouse to be closed", begins "Formerly known as the Stepney Workhouse and Infirmary, the Bromley House Institution is to close."

Last edited by Chris : 05-31-2008 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Added title of 1923 report
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:47 AM
fido fido is offline
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Did 'Septic Blue' intend his nom-de-plume to sound self-denigratory, or did he mean sceptic? Or is there some witty or vernacular phrase I'm unaware of?
Martin F
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:53 PM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Hi Colin,

Thank you this is a very good and educational thread. The attached map (click here) shows the Stepeney Union Workhouse, abbreviated on the map as Stepney Workho. It is one map square below where Bow Road crosses the River Lea.

Is the Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum (P&SSA)the unmarked building complex directly south across the rail tracks from that?

I can't find the P&SSA on an old map, although I can easily find St Andrews, it's name now, on a modern one.

If these two entities were so physically close together, that is another source of mixing up the names.

Again, thanks for this great post. Learning a lot.

Roy
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