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  • #16
    Who else Rob? And any later time periods available?

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    • #17
      Hi Scott,

      I checked up to March 1891 for Kosminski with no luck. There are some missing dates (January 89 if I remember correctly) and some of the names are illegible due to stains covering some pages. There are later dates. It goes up to 1923 when it closed temporarily, and then from 1926 to 1931.
      All those dates I believe are covered on Microfilm.

      Rob

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
        When Rose Mylett was in the 'Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum' 20 January 1888 to 9 March 1888, under 'Name and Address of nearest relation', her daughter Florence is list and her place of residence was 'in Stepney Workhouse'. I checked in the registers for Stepney Union Workhouse and she is listed there. Also Stepney Union Workhouse was known as 'Bromley House'
        It may be worth adding that of the seven references to "Stepney Workhouse" in the Times Digital Archive 1785-1985 from the period after the building of the St Leonard's Street workhouse in the early 1860s, five are clearly to the Stepney Union Workhouse, one doesn't give sufficient information to identify which workhouse is meant and the other is to "the old Stepney Workhouse, Ratcliff", which according to Peter Higginbotham's site had previously been the parish workhouse.

        The report of the closure of the St Leonard's Street workhouse, printed on 21 August 1923, entitled "Stepney Workhouse to be closed", begins "Formerly known as the Stepney Workhouse and Infirmary, the Bromley House Institution is to close."
        Last edited by Chris; 05-31-2008, 03:26 PM. Reason: Added title of 1923 report

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        • #19
          Did 'Septic Blue' intend his nom-de-plume to sound self-denigratory, or did he mean sceptic? Or is there some witty or vernacular phrase I'm unaware of?
          Martin F

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          • #20
            Hi Colin,

            Thank you this is a very good and educational thread. The attached map (click here) shows the Stepeney Union Workhouse, abbreviated on the map as Stepney Workho. It is one map square below where Bow Road crosses the River Lea.

            Is the Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum (P&SSA)the unmarked building complex directly south across the rail tracks from that?

            I can't find the P&SSA on an old map, although I can easily find St Andrews, it's name now, on a modern one.

            If these two entities were so physically close together, that is another source of mixing up the names.

            Again, thanks for this great post. Learning a lot.

            Roy
            Sink the Bismark

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            • #21
              I looked some more and the answer to my question is yes. Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum was right across the tracks from Stepney Union Workhouse.

              http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.h...epneySAD.shtml

              It doesn't answer the specific jurisdictional question, though, and use of vernacular could be the simple solution. Or not.

              Again Colin, thanks for your thought-provoking exposition -- Roy
              Last edited by Roy Corduroy; 03-25-2009, 11:58 PM.
              Sink the Bismark

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              • #22
                I'm sorry I missed you, Roy!

                The use of some sort of 'vernacular', on the part of Donald Swanson, is a distinct possibility; as is fading memory, after all those years.

                But so too, is a failed attempt on the part of one of his five children to uphold a certain 'family tradition'.

                - "failed" in as much as some of the 'facts' are inaccurate.

                Any of these three possibilities does more to validate the content of the margin/end notes; than does the insistence that the notes are of genuine provenance simply because ... one says so.

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                • #23
                  Hi Sceptic

                  The marginalia does not have a genuine provenance because “Fido and Begg’ say so?

                  It has a genuine provenance because all the evidence indicates that it is Genuine.

                  Obviously whether or not the marginalia might be faked is a question that has been considered at length by Paul Begg. (And a question on which I have personally tackled him on many occassions). Indeed when I posted on casebook asking if anyone could give me a plausible senario How, When and by whom the marginalia might have been forged? I was met with total silence…

                  I’m also worried about the use of the phrase 'certain ‘family tradition’'. Do you refer to Stuart Evans claim that Jim Swanson believed his grand father solved the case?

                  Do you know of any hard evidence that ‘there was a family tradition? As far as I’m aware we only have Stuarts claim that when he greeted Jim Swanson he said something similar to this, it hardly makes a ‘Family Tradition’.

                  Above all the handwriting analysis done on the marginalia points conclusively in one direction….That the Marginalia is GENUINE.

                  Pirate
                  Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 06-05-2009, 10:39 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Up the Shrimpers, Jeff

                    I said it several weeks ago, above; …

                    Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
                    The use of some sort of 'vernacular', on the part of Donald Swanson, is a distinct possibility; as is fading memory, after all those years.

                    But so too, is a failed attempt on the part of one of his five children to uphold a certain 'family tradition'.

                    - "failed" in as much as some of the 'facts' are inaccurate.

                    Any of these three possibilities does more to validate the content of the margin/end notes; than does the insistence that the notes are of genuine provenance simply because ... one says so.
                    … just yesterday, in some other thread; …

                    Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
                    A distinct possibility would be a failed attempt on the part of one of Swanson's five children to uphold a certain 'family tradition' (e.g. that the 'old man' cracked the case; and that the culprit was someone named 'Kosminski', who lived with his brother).

                    - "failed" in as much as some of the 'facts' are inaccurate.

                    What Martin Fido, Paul Begg, et al fail to realize, is that this possibility does more to validate the content of the margin/end notes; than does the insistence that the notes are of genuine provenance simply because ... one says so.
                    … and I'm going to say it again, right here:

                    A distinct possibility would be a failed attempt on the part of one of Swanson's five children to uphold a certain 'family tradition' (e.g. that the 'old man' cracked the case; and that the culprit was someone named 'Kosminski', who lived with his brother).

                    - "failed" in as much as some of the 'facts' are inaccurate.

                    What Martin Fido, Paul Begg, et al fail to realize, is that this possibility does more to validate the content of the margin/end notes; than does the insistence that the notes are of genuine provenance simply because ... one says so.

                    Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                    Indeed when I posted on casebook asking if anyone could give me a plausible senario How, When and by whom the marginalia might have been forged? I was met with total silence…
                    I think that "silence" has now been broken!

                    Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                    Do you know of any hard evidence that ‘there was a family tradition? As far as I’m aware we only have Stuarts claim that when he greeted Jim Swanson he said something similar to this, it hardly makes a ‘Family Tradition’.
                    I have proposed a hypothetical possibility, for which no "hard evidence" is needed.

                    And again; the reality of such a possibility would lend infinitely more credence to the content of the so-called 'Swanson Marginalia', than would any foot-stomping insistence on yours or anyone else's part. But of course, those of us having 'Cornwellian' agendas would not agree.

                    Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                    Above all the handwriting analysis done on the marginalia points conclusively in one direction….That the Marginalia is GENUINE.
                    That is unadulterated 'BS'; and you know it, Jeff!

                    Now, if you will excuse me; I can only take so much of the 'kiddy pool', in one day.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
                      Up the Shrimpers, Jeff

                      I said it several weeks ago, above; …

                      … just yesterday, in some other thread; …

                      … and I'm going to say it again, right here:

                      A distinct possibility would be a failed attempt on the part of one of Swanson's five children to uphold a certain 'family tradition' (e.g. that the 'old man' cracked the case; and that the culprit was someone named 'Kosminski', who lived with his brother).

                      - "failed" in as much as some of the 'facts' are inaccurate.

                      What Martin Fido, Paul Begg, et al fail to realize, is that this possibility does more to validate the content of the margin/end notes; than does the insistence that the notes are of genuine provenance simply because ... one says so.

                      I think that "silence" has now been broken!
                      Ye I got that. What I'm asking is What family tradition? I can find no source for this 'Family Tradition' it would appear to be a myth.

                      Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
                      I have proposed a hypothetical possibility, for which no "hard evidence" is needed.

                      And again; the reality of such a possibility would lend infinitely more credence to the content of the so-called 'Swanson Marginalia', than would any foot-stomping insistence on yours or anyone else's part. But of course, those of us having 'Cornwellian' agendas would not agree.

                      That is unadulterated 'BS'; and you know it, Jeff!

                      Now, if you will excuse me; I can only take so much of the 'kiddy pool', in one day.
                      Its not foot stomping. I'm just requesting that if you wish me to beleive that the marginalia is NOT genuine to explain clearly..

                      Who forged it? When it was forged? (bearing in mind the very tight window of possibility)

                      If you are saying in answer to my question WHY? was it forged that it was to uphold the family honour can you provide evidence for that claim....

                      Pirate

                      PS. I have moved to kent and I'm being tortured into supporting Gillingham.

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                      • #26
                        Mile End Hospital 1902

                        Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
                        The foundation stone was then laid for the construction of a new workhouse facility (workhouse; infirmary; casual ward) at the opposite end of Alderney Road (formerly Alderney Place), on the eastern side of its junction with Bancroft Road. This was the facility (specifically; Mile End Old Town Infirmary), to which Aaron Kosminski was admitted on two separate occasions.
                        Click image for larger version

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                        Labelled "Louise Stanley in Mile End Hospital, 1902. Two weeks after this photograph was taken she died of tuberculosis"
                        That being the same facility on Bancroft Road, where Kosminski was admitted before. Photo from this site (here)
                        Sink the Bismark

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